Reason in a Godless Subway

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Spinmaster, Oct 31, 2009.

  1. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Some folks in NY are going to quite a bit of trouble to make sure everyone knows they don't believe in God; Bob Hoose from Focus on the Family offers some interesting thoughts on this.

    http://www.focusonlinecommunities.com/blogs/pluggedin/2009/10/30/reason-in-a-godless-subway

     
  2. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member


    I’m not real sure what I should take away from the comments put forth by Mr. Hoothe. That is, he seems to be burning down a poorly constructed straw-man in my opinion. Beyond that, I can’t really see why anyone would find their putting the ads up so mind boggling. On the other hand, I don’t buy the idea that it’s only to ‘get the gang together’. Nor would I as a non-theist (atheist) wish to be associated with a group whom I ‘suspect’ is being less than intellectually honest in saying such things….
     
  3. CosmicFish

    CosmicFish Aleprechaunist

    My first thought was to agree that they should mind their own business. And I should point out that I'm strongly atheistic myself. However, on reflection, they have a right to advertise their beliefs and opinions if they want to. And let's be honest, the last people in the world who should be complaining about that sort of thing are the people who regularly put up ads for things like the alpha course (do they have that in the US?) or advertising their favourite tele-evangelist, or going door to door asking people if they want to talk about "God's message for them".

    It seems like double standards to criticise them. A bit like when there was controversy over the London ads on the bendy buses that said "There's probably no god." I don't recall hearing similar controversy over the alpha course adverts.
     
  4. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member


    Exactly; I couldn’t even begin to count the billboards, signs, giant crosses, and religious statues present here in my home state. (And some of the signs and billboards aren’t so friendly.)
     
  5. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Of course not, because everyone realises that the tooth fairy doesn't exist. But if you lived in a world where not only where you presumed to a believer in the tooth fairy, and those that didn't were looked down upon and seen as morally inferior then maybe you would spend some time and money to stand up for your self and show others that it's perfectly fine to be an afairyist.

    Hmmmmm.

    It's the overall presumption that not believing in a god is somehow a problem. The very existence of this mans article nicely demonstrates this!

    Religion in the US may be starting to slowly shrink, but it is still a powerful majority and can and does influence policy. Also, just look at the Jewish lobby… very small, yet still very powerful.

    It's about coming together and ensuring the rights of the non-religious are not abused; it's about ensuring that religion does not control peoples lives or dictate policies which should be based on reason and evidence.
     
  6. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    I'm not sure about the UK, but in US polls atheists are consistently rated as less trustworthy than any other 'traditionally disliked' group.

    I tend to think that most of these advertisements are less about converting people and more about letting others (both religious and other atheists) know that it's okay or 'normal' to be an atheist.

    I'd be interesting to look at this in the context of other persecuted groups historically. Does anyone with a better knowledge of some of those struggles have any intuition as to how they compare?
     
  7. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Of course they have the right to put them up. However, I think they should at least be honest about their intentions. Christians are more than happy to admit (in most cases, at least) that they are trying to witness when they put up ads like this. Are y'all willing to admit that you're trying to "witness" to the Christians? :evil:
     
  8. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Fair enough, I guess.


    And yet it seems to me that many atheists seem to consider believing in God as intellectually inferior, the presumption that believing in God is a problem that mankind needs to be "freed" from.

    So that brings us back to another point; they ARE trying to "witness" in spite of the statement that it's just "to get the gang together".

    Dude, that's part of the separation of church and state. Religion isn't going to "control your life", because the constitution clearly states that everyone can believe what they want, and that personal conscience can't be dictated by the government.
     
  9. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Spin master posted

    So why do my kids learn genesis and Jesus at school but not evolution.

    Garth
     
  10. CosmicFish

    CosmicFish Aleprechaunist

    Interestingly enough, I'm reading "The God Delusion" by Dawkins at the moment. One point he brings up is that one purpose of his book is an attempt at a form of "consciousness raising". He compares it to the rise of feminism and how that was an attempt to "raise the consciousness" of men in such as way as to cause them to regard women as equals. Looked at this way, you could argue that what these ads are trying to say isn't so much "we want to convert you" but "we are not inferior to you".


    I personally don't "witness" to believers, but I do like to debate the subject. :) I'd agree that the group should be honest about their intentions, whatever they are. Most groups that aren't honest wil only harm themselves in the long run because they'll eventually cause outsiders to lose confidence in them.

    I'll put my hand up and admit that I'm guilty of this. However, it should be pointed out that it's human nature to regard people who don't share your beliefs as being "inferior". I can tell you from experience that many Christians openly regard non-christians with open contempt. Ideally we should all, believers and non-believers alike, make the effort to respect others views and to not look down on others. I also catch myself looking down on the following groups: overly fat people, incredibly skinny people, people who think that a low fat diet and chronic cardio is any good, chavs, people who bench in the Smith machine and call it a workout, etc. I'm also continually reminding myseld that, with the exception of chavs, I don't have the right to look down on them at all.

    Point being, none of us should do it but it's more a factor of human nature than being specifically caused by being an atheist.
     
  11. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    Anyone else notice that in the same paragraph he asks "what are they protesting?", he displays the very attitude that's being challenged by these posters?
    I've written a comment on the website. Although it has to pass a moderator before it will be posted, I wrote it very carefully to have a non-threatening tone so they might be interested in the feedback and post it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
  12. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Come again? I was under the impression that evolution is commonly taught in public schools, with intelligent design sometimes presented as a possible alternative explanation.
     
  13. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    I'm a bit confused here; what attitude? The idea that God is necessary for there to be good? I fail to see how this is offensive to you. Without some form of absolute, be it God, or "the force", or whatever you believe in, you can't really have absolute good and evil. You can have systems of morality, but it essentially comes down to humans figuring out how to coexist with each other in the fashion that will present the least problems. Thus, nothing is absolutely good or evil, but depends on how it affects society.

    Well, hopefully it will generate some good discussion. :) I usually just read and don't post, but if things get interesting I just might join in.
     
  14. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Maybe they do (like CosmicFish said it's human nature) in any case atheists have no real power anyway, whereas the influence and power of religion does actually impact people.

    If you mean convert them to atheism then I don't see this as their goal since you're not going to convert anyone over to anything via a poster. The posters are designed to make theists realise that being a non-theist isn't somehow inherently bad and it's to get atheists to realise that there are others like them and to speak up. They're designed to start a debate about religion. That said, there is nothing wrong with trying to convince people about your beliefs/ideologies, but it is a problem when that it being criticised by theists all the while the theists are doing the same thing!

    That doesn't stop some religious groups from trying to interfere with peoples lives, with politics, with education, etc.

    You don't see how being told that without belief in god you cannot be good is offensive?!

    Well then it's good that there's so such thing as absolute good and evil.

    Exactly, but then this is precisely what theists do too. They just call their conclusions the absolute commands of god.
     
  15. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I was going to post a comment. Couldn't find the post comment button? :thinking:
     
  16. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Spin master posted

    Not in the UK.

    My son who is 9 has a whole school book covered in everything from genesis to noah ark to jesus.

    All he has been taught about evolution is from me.

    But then one can hardly expect the teachers to get their heads round such a subject.

    By the way did anyone see the recent Richard Dawkins TV programme

    Heres a clip showing the way some Children think in regard to evolution and religion

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGvOpFFNdho"]YouTube - The Genius of Charles Darwin - Episode 1 Life, Darwin and Everything 1 of 5[/ame]

    You should hear the teachers explanation why they dont teach it.
     
  17. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    Well, isn't it basically saying that atheists can't be good people?
    How can that not be offensive!! :Angel:
    I'm not offended by it because I know you guys don't have bad intentions with this, and are merely expressing your own honest opinion, but you can see why this is a belief that we would very much like to challenge. :)

    Okay.
    I'm going to break my answer into 2 parts:
    How a "system of morality" can provide an "absolute" good.
    You came pretty close yourself actually.
    Humans figuring how to coexist that will present the least problems.
    As there are absolute facts about what causes problems for humans and the best way to solve them this does provide an absolute morality.


    Criticisms of "good" that is determined by God
    There are two classical views of religious morality.
    1) God says X is good because X is good.
    (i.e. God subscribes to a secular morality)
    2) X is good because God says X is good.
    This seems to be more what you have in mind, that God determines what is good by his will.

    If you have "good" being defined as "what God wants" then you get some weird results.
    If God suddenly changed his mind (and why couldn't he?) and decided that rape and murder was good, would rape and murder now be good?
    You might say God would never make this change?
    Is this because God follows a code of morality? (i.e. one that wasn't determined by him)

    Even without the hypothetical scenario there are ways to criticise "Divine Command" morality.
    When someone blows up a hospital, is the badness simply that he's disobeyed God?
    Shouldn't the badness be the horrible pain and suffering that he's caused?
    "Obeying God" just doesn't seem to reflect why we have ethics and why it is so important to us.

    Fingers crossed! ;)
    Looking forward to your reply.
     
  18. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    You have to sign up and log in before it appears.
    Even when you post the comment is has to go through a moderator so you'd have to treat carefully.
    It's doesn't seem like a website with fierce debate in mind so they might not allow anything they consider threatening or volatile.
     
  19. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

  20. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Dawkins hold them they would go to hell if they didn't pay attention! :banana:
     

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