Fight Quest was what turned me on to Hapkido in the first place. That episode really impressed me. I've said it before, I feel that Hapkido (Provided its REAL, Functional Hapkido) and TKD are two halves of a whole. I currently take both simultaneously and while it IS a lot of information to digest I feel that in combination they lend themselves so well to one another. TKD gives me the skills I need to defend myself against a puncher/kicker while Hakido allows me to defend myself using the joint locks and throws its so well known for. Granted I have no idea how well I'd be able to defend myself against a true grappler but then even after the years I spent bouncing I can only recall one fight where two people went to ground but it was by complete accident and then they just both stood back up and threw haymakers at each other again, lol. I think it's that neither of them wanted to get their tight stretchy shirts dirty on the floor... lol At any rate, I guess I'm just a total fan of all things korean ... except kimchee... I just dont hate my colon that much... jus sayin.
I know a kettle bell trainer who advocates doing a set of hyungs with kettle bell swings between each form. Claims it is a killer workout and I can believe it. They are a pretty tough workout without the kettle bell swings. I think Toe Job brings up good points. Rounds on the heavy bag rather than a set of forms would be a fine way to workout by yourself (and more directly related to self defense). We can bring up form application, which gets into some pretty esoteric stuff and even some grappling interpretations. Yet as PASmith once said instead of searching for obscure grappling applications in the forms I can train grappling that is bleeding obvious during that time. So why train them? For me it is active meditation time. Kind of like a mini yoga session. It has physical and mental relaxation benefits. And I enjoy it. And I really think that is what it boils down to. I agree with Toe Job's points, but hyung training 'floats my boat' in ways that are difficult to describe.
I think that it an excellent point, after all pattern training can mean many different thing to different people and I can certainly relate to "getting in the zone" and mentally preparing at the start of a pattern! I also agree in part with what hpkstl is saying and I believe their are some applicable applications that can be found in patterns to be used in fighting scenarios, I only problem I have is I would rather do these techniques on actual people than spending time doing them against an imaginary opponents!
Thanks! So is safe to assume that the original TKD Pioneers that put together the KMA of SD for SD did not have access to or knowledge of this type of activity?
This is already in original TKD If & it is a BIG IF, they train in free sparring & do not mistake it for tournament sparring, as free sparring, according to Gen Choi is essentially an open combat with all available means to be utilized for attack & defense & that you train under as realisitc conditions as possible when doing SD training. Also knowing & following his guidelines & progression with respect to the 6 types of sparring in original or ITF TKD also helps
I understand & accept your valid point. However I do think it is more semantics than anything. Bottom line for me, as far as a definition goes is: that a MMA trained for fighting & SD, not a sport, I will call "a combat system of SD" that a MMA trained for sports purposes & competition I will call "MMA" Now I will concide & restate, as this always has been a long help position of mine: If one wants to train for SD/street fighting/survival etc, they must train in a system that specializes in that. That being said, a TMA can offer additional side benefits, in addition to SD, but their capacity to deliver SD can not be as good as a school, system, instructor who training is solely limited to SD. Finally a good MMA school, training system, instructor, no matter the focus of the training will IMHO depart better SD skills that a TMA, as MMA are by definition a mix of MAs, with a focus on using all for SD/sport
Google any of the original TKD Pioneers & you will see what their respective backgrounds were & how they put it all together in the ROK Army One common mistake people make is to take the word of someONE or what someon said someone else said, without doing their own respective research. Lets be clear here: I am NOT saying that the original TKD Pioneers did anything like the MMA of today, as in a previous post in this thread, I thanked those that informed me of the MMA background & history. It is apparent that the original TKD Pioneers did not have exposure to this MMA activity that we see today. They did however have various levels of experience & talent in different fighting system of the day (1950s-60s) in SK. That is clear. Sadly the directions & guidance that the Founder left was not followed by many & he wasted so much time or dedicated the large majority of his time to his patterns, to the detriment of SD & realism that he preached, but did not follow up with actions. So today we have far too many ITF schools that do not follow his 6 types of sparring & how he wanted SD & free sparring to be trained (REALISM). Yes of course. But when students do, guided by good instructors, they will quickly learn their shortcomings & hopefully will supplement the training with those better versed in sharing. Now some may call that cross training. I simply say that since original TKD was designed as a mix of MAs available, adding more to it, just helps it to accomplish its original mission. I then would say, once new techniques are adapted, trained & owned, then shared with others in an original TKD dojang, that now becomes Original TKD. Again this can be semantics etc. But to me MAs are about SD. Some may emphasize certain traits, character & philosophy of training. However, since original TKD was devised as a Mix of MAs, adding more to the Mix, makes or has the ptential to make a better & more complete MA, jmo
I disagree totally with #1 above. Trail & error is exactly the process through how most major inventions have come to be used by mankind. Now of course, someone who simply tries by trial & error, will not go as fast as someone who trains under a qualified instructor with that focus, knowledge & experience. My point is that when people fight for real, their own set of eyes & their own brain will tell them how bad they are, how limited they are & how much more they have to go. it is a start. Hopefully they will be in a good school, where a good instructor will invite in others to help their students in areas where they can not. This is the role of a good teacher, to produce good students. Often it takes a village or some sross training or sharing with like minded MAists! #2 & 3 above agreed, the more realisitc the sport, in terms of real fighting, it only makes sense that there will be effective spillover & all MAs can help someone to better defend themselves, some obviously will do it more efficently
Thanks, but that has not been my experience. To me, TKD, both major sets, ITF & WTF have the kicks & variations of kicks, more so than any other MA. This is just from my common understanding. I never did research into comparing TKD's kicks to Hapkido. I did do such a comparision with an early TKD book to an early Karate book, printed around the same time & TKD had far more
Yes & Hapkido was considered part of the inclusion or mox of the MAs back when original TKD was being developed. Sadly many have not emphasized this in current ITF schools
You know that TKD instructor I had in the Marines that learned from the Koreans as well that I was telling you about? Well, he taught us the tuls, all fine and dandy. He taught us all the major kicking, all good and fine. He also taught us 25 self-defense techniques that were combinations of striking, blocking, locks, joint and appendage breaks, throws, sweeps, and reaps. It was cool, we ate it up. Sadly, this stuff is not prevelant in tkd curriculums I have seen in the past and current. I am going to cheat a bit here to help with the hkd, tkd kicking difference etc. I am using the wikipedia stuff that is a culmination of facts. However, further reading can be done by cross examination of Dr. He-Young Kimm's: Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do books. Also, I have the ITF book with black cover from Gen. Choi. It's cool. I really dig it. Also, I have the collection of the tuls from Chong-Ji to Choong Moo. Of course I also have the Tae Kwon Do Textbook from the KKW. I love research, I am very particular of showing someone learning tae kwon do how the tkd practitioner does it. I am very particular of showing someone learning hapkido how the hkd practitioner does it. Now remember the focus and reason for a side kick used in hapkido is different than that of a taekwondo practioner. Now follow this link please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido#Kicking KICKING The wide variety of kicks in hapkido make it distinctly Korean. Taekwondo kicks appear to be similar to many of the kicks found in hapkido, though again circular motion is emphasized. Also in contrast to most modern taekwondo styles hapkido utilises a wide variety of low (below the waist), hooking or sweeping kicks, with one of the most distinctive being the low spinning (sweeping) heel kick. Hapkido's method of delivery tends toward greater weight commitment to the strikes and less concern for quick retraction of the kicking leg. Traditionally, Choi Yong-Sool's yu kwon sool (유권술; 柔拳術) kicking techniques were only to the lower body, but most derived varieties of hapkido, probably as a direct influence from other Korean arts, also include high kicks and jumping kicks. At the more advanced levels of Hapkido the practitioner learns "blade kicks" which utilize sweeping blade strikes of the inner and outer foot against pressure points of the body. Two of the earliest innovators in this regard were Ji Han-Jae and Kim Moo-Hong, both of whom were exposed to what were thought to be indigenous Korean kicking arts. They combined these forms together with the yu sool concepts for striking taught to them by Choi and during a period of 8 months training together in 1961 finalized the kicking curriculum which would be used by the Korea Hapkido Association (Daehan Hapkido Hyub Hwe) for many years to come.[10] Other influences also were exerted on the kicking techniques of important hapkido teachers. Kwon Tae-Man (Hangul: 권태만) initially studied under Ji Han-Jae before immigrating to southern California in the United States. Han Bong-soo (Hangul: 한봉수) studied under Gwonbeop (권법; 拳法) and Shūdōkan karate from Yoon Byung-In (Hangul: 윤병인), whose students were influential in the later forming of kong soo do and taekwondo styles, specifically the Chang Moo Kwan and Jidokwan. He, like Kim Moo-Hong, also trained briefly in the Korean art of taekkyeon under Lee Bok-Yong (Hangul: 이복용).[15] Many other teachers like Myung Kwang-Sik (Hangul: 명광식), Jeong Kee-Tae (Hangul: 정기태), Lim Hyun-Soo (Hangul: 임현수), and many others trained in tang soo do and kong soo do, Shotokan and Shūdōkan karate based systems which predated and influenced the forming of first tae soo do and later modern taekwondo styles. Kim Sang-Cook states that while many of the original yu kwon sool students were exposed to many different contemporary Korean arts the Chung Do Kwan was of particular importance in the transition from the original jujutsu based form to what we know today as modern hapkido.[16]
Here is a quote by Jhoon Rhee: That is from Bruce Lee Conversations - The Life and Legacy of a Legend pg 124. Note I disagree with Rhee here. I think the focus is a bit too narrow. But clearly he is advocating the old 'better 1 sharp knife than 1000 dull knives' thinking. And, btw, I think Rhee was a guy who could defend himself well. Strong and fit and obviously knew how to hit hard. In a Killing Art you have quotes from guys who were black belts in other styles saying Rhee improved their technique and power 1000 percent (or some such) when they came to him. He was (and is) very well respected. BTW the cross-training link for the early days is there. Joe Lewis, in the same book, mentions how everybody trained everything...to a certain extent. But even the original pioneers of TKD, like Rhee, focused on the stand up game. Maybe TKD was more MMAesque in its extreme infancy. But most of the evidence and interviews point to it being primarily a stand up art.
Thats cool. Thats how it is for you. What confuses me is that the training is still the same for both. Its just if you go into a sports fight you follow those rules. If not, its no rules. But the fightings the same. So I dont see the point in saying ones a 'combat system ' and ones MMA, Maybe thats just me.
I have googled before and the ones I found dont mention the things your saying yet I will look again. There is problem with taking peoples word for it, I agree. In this case its only 1 step away from an original source which isnt bad in terms of reliability. The main problem I have is non of this 'original TKD' is in the curriculum and non of it is used to judge on gradings with original pioneers on the panel. So I stand by my view they were not even doing it. They were doing what they judge us on. It was mainly stand up and some Judo(grabs ,holds sweeps,throws)
Great Grandmaster Stevens, who was my USMC instructor said "I am training you the way the Koreans showed me. How to kill someone first. Keep in mind that a tournament is something you compete in with a ruleset. So instead of doing heel strikes to the head, turn them into cresents."
Im not saying trial and error it bad. Its essential. Im saying its ok to just try it and learn by just going for it. Yet its better to have an expert pointing you in the right direction . Theres always going to be trial and error though. Fun should be the number one reason for training. I personal find it fun and challenging to train with the best I can and get as highly skilled as possible. Alot do. Its not paranoia to want to be as good as possible. I think its actualy the opposite where people think they will face unskilled people too much. The truth is no one has a clue how good anyone is untill they are attacking so the benefit of training against highly skilled people is massive for SD. An unskilled person is easyier and if they are skilled I still stand a chance.
tkd student, i don't know if anyone has ever asked you this (apologies if they have ) but are you iluvtkd from a certain other forum, if not you 2 would certainly have a lot in common as you both seem to be a fountain of knowledge of itf related tkd. if you are not the same person i could imagine both of you having lengthy discussions about all thing itf..
Hey guys I found this information while scouring a bit. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFQpOxHCMv8"]YouTube- TONG-IL Taekwondo Documentary Film Trailer www.TONG-ILmovie.com[/ame] Also http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/15/AR2010081502100.html?hpid=topnews
Sounds like Hapkido is what I have been doing all along & calling it TKD! Thanks for the link. I would love to read more if you research it.
Well I do love TKD & am sure that most readers can see that, we are after all, just a student(s) of TKD
