Really interesting Video comparing Push Hands judging in America and China

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by aaradia, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In my "Chang Taiji" system, we use Taiji push hands drills to "develop" certain skills. We don't deal with "non-cooperative opponent" in push hands drills at all.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q42bbYLvxEM&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q42bbYLvxEM&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

    We don't use Taiji push hands to "test" our skill. We use "wrestling" and "sparring" to "test" our skill instead. This way we can cover a much wide range of MA skills "developing" and "testing".

    IMO, the natural process for Taiji skill development should be:

    Taiji form -> Taiji push hands -> sparring/wrestling -> ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  2. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member


    IMO Taiji does help allot with standup...but yes you have to cross train.

    I haven't read till the end of this thread yet but I suppose someone will have said some similar thing later. But when looking at this video, however there are some interesting points:

    1) The comment If you do it properly, hopefully! is about stand up i assume...yet the grappler (I assume NON Asian guy) is easily lowering his level and taking shots for the take downs. Not really 100% stand up.

    2) It's obvious the Asian dude is used to a different type opponent because he really wants the grappler to "give him something to hold onto"...hence he wants to grapple, albeit stand up.

    = Wrestler pulls his hands back and doesn't really want the Asian dude to get hand control. Ok, that's a no brainer. We all know they weren't trying to strike each other but at that range, it SINGS LOUDLY of sport grappling and not just combat focused.

    For myself, I've done both these types in competition and in school and can appreciate what each guys is trying to achieve but they just have different mindsets. Good thing they don't have ego because it could have easily turned into "you get me...i'll get you mentality" As often does with sparring martial arts from different styles.

    Another comment, even in straight up grappling there are limited PALM pushes to the chest and face and also Cross faces. If the asian dude were to use those he could get a better reaction from the grappler and therefore be able to better apply.

    As it is, when the grappler lowers his level for a double leg (For example at 1:47) he goes down on his knees, it's a great move on MATs but not so advisable on concrete. It's obvious that the asian dude just wasn't prepared for that, is limited in ability or just being nice.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  3. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I agree with what you are saying. I just think that a lot of people seem to be doing competitions who appear to be still at a beginners level, and I wonder if they are getting any real benefit from it. They don't appear to have much idea of what they are doing - but of course that could be due to tensing up through adrenaline, nerves, unfamiliarity with their opponent. It may have more to do with their ability to handle pressure in the competition environment than their normal ability in class!

    HOWEVER, that opinion is based purely on what I have seen from videos posted at various times on MAP. I don't know the people concerned so I may be making assumptions. It's just a POV based on video clips, that's all.
     
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The Taiji guy let his opponent to grab on his wrist most of the time. He didn't spend enough effort to avoid it. That was his mistake. In wrestling, the grip fight is very important. If you lose your grip fight (allow your opponent to control your arm/arms), you have lose your wrestling already even if you are still standing.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F75huga-Zz4"]Marcelo Garcia and Tuishou Chen Do Karate-do - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I love that fact that people on here thing Marcello Garcia, is just 'a wrestler'
     
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    How's that then. In some silly macho Chinese cultural way ?
    In case you didn't know it's the rules and judges that say who wins and loses a wrestling contest.

    You know taking this out if that context for a moment, would you really be trying to control someone's wrists if they could use any manner of striking against you?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2015
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    not everyone on here.
     
  8. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    It could be worse, my mum once called Royce Gracie "that karate bloke who does the caged boxing".
     
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I would, and I'll call that "octopus strategy".

    The purpose is you try to disable your opponent's striking ability ASAP and force him to play the "grip breaking game". If you are a grappler, anything you do that can prevent your striking opponent from striking you will be to your advantage. The trade off here is you may have to give up your own fist striking. Of course you can use your punch to set up a wrist grip if you still want your opponent to worry about your punches.

    If you can control both of your opponent's arms and also jam his leading leg, he won't be able to punch or kick you at that 1/2 second.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGgv6Wm3-ds"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGgv6Wm3-ds[/ame]

    If you can take your opponent down within that 1/2 second when he tries to deal with your arms control and leg jam, you have accomplished a safe entry.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvpDSG5UZ8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvpDSG5UZ8[/ame]

    Your "wrist control" can serve the following purposes:

    - disable your opponent's arm mobility.
    - distract your opponent's attention and hide your true attack.
    - guide your opponent's arm away from your attacking path.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrCf_ONd05s&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrCf_ONd05s&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

    If you train how to catch your opponent's punches when his arm is moving, you will have more confidence to catch his arm when his arm is not moving, or not moving very fast. I'll never try to catch an incoming punch. But I believe the training has some value in it.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np0nS37Fa_w&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np0nS37Fa_w&feature=youtu.be[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Did you play rock paper scissors when you were a kid.

    Chinna against wrestling - grab my wrist please. Striking against Chinna and wrestling against striking.
    As you explained (this thread or another) you were able to evade/negate any arm contact against you in wrestling for quite some time.

    Trying to smother or tie up a striker with wrestling is good with me, but it's not going to your best strategy to do it via wrist grabbing and wrist holds.

    In a pure stand up wrestling game; introducing china would change the game. It would make grabbing the wrist a move vulnerable to a number of counters.

    In some situations the positional advantage and circumstance of upper hand wrist grab/ control may help, but wanted to point out it can be fairly limited or minimal scenarios.

    To me the glaring issue with the taiji guy against the elite grappler was his lack of defence against the leg attacks. That's what I would be highlighting or telling him to work on if he wants to play in rule-sets like that.

    I also don't really buy into wrist grabs/ controls being a an automatic 'control' of anything. Only a positional advantage depending on what's allowed. In terms of controlling of the body or arms - it can work both ways through the contact point. You can and do shut down options, but then your hand(s) are also occupied.

    In terms of wrestling throws and takedowns the stand up wrist control position in of itself is not definitive of anything. A 2 on 1 is better position and involves one wrist control and another control and you off the one side. In other scenarios something like that might be ok if the person is against a barrier and in such an angle their striking options are very limited.

    I'm not really trying to be for or against wrist control, I just want to highlight that in terms of that clip and the rule-set the taiji guy is used to I wouldn't make it a priority issue.

    A competition rule-set should serve the style its' developed for. Seeing as Chinna is a big aspect of the stand up grappling in TCC it's a compelling reason to omit wrist holding due to the many counters - whether from the hold or the attempt to get wrist holds. Notice that grasping and pulling is allowed.

    I honestly think that if someone grabbed both my wrists in 'real life' I would just use it to pull them into my headbutt or knee to groin/ groin kick. Just remember when you initiate something there is always risks of counters - whatever that may be available.

    If I'm face off against anyone, in an 'anything goes' grabbing and holding/controlling them from the wrists would be very low on my agenda.
    Doing something in a clinch may be worthwhile to shut down hand striking for example if wrapping/ overs and unders etc. are not enough to do it.

    In your second clip for example you are wide open to a right hand for more than enough time to eat one. Your second video isn't working - need to sign in for it.

    I know about the 'octopus strategy', but your last clip is not something I bother with against striking. If someone is that poor a striker I can catch the punch in the air I probably don't have that much to worry about.

    Waste of time training that drill in my opinion, by all means train your grabbing in clinch/ wrestling drills - to a purpose (eg. arm drags). I would stick to parries and deflections and direct striking or entry/clinch takedown counters; against striking. Grabbing and holding the wrist/ forearm in itself leaves me nowhere great and there's sure to be a follow up strike making its way toward my chin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Your opponent can do that to you too. The chance is 50-50. The difference is if your opponent grabs on your wrists, when you pull him, he can release his grips and do something else.

    Which way is more effective "pulling"? You try to pull your opponent into you when

    1. You grab on your opponent's wrist, or
    2. Your opponent grabs on your wrist.

    I believe the 1st method is more effective than the 2nd method.

    The "arm wrap" is not shown in that clip. If you wrap your left arm around your opponent's right upper arm, you can disable his right punch at that moment. Form a wrestler's point of view, that "arm wrap" is more important than that "head lock".

    It's fixed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  12. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Hey John W...thought you might like this video, that is if you haven't seen it yet:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTP16HPFMms"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTP16HPFMms[/ame]
     
  13. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I think he said grappler, and since said guy fought in the early UFC's with no gloves and limited rules from his point of view he probably is just a grappler/wrestler is not a fighter
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Subitai said both wrestler and grappler..

    Did he (subitai) fight in the early UFC's? I had no idea, Marcello has competed in MMA but iirc not successfully.
     
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I have seen this clip many times. Chen Taiji has more "wrestling flavor" in it (not just "push").
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
  16. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I thought that this version of Chen resistance work was more interesting. At least in this case you have two people playing and not one being manhandled. I really thought that in the previous vid it was an experienced guy against someone untrained. Would have been a similar situation in judo or wrestling or whatever where 2 unequals were interacting.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq1t82FjdFg[/ame]

    Just an observation.

    LFD
     
  17. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    If its the same subitai from other Chinese forums then yes ufc 7 as an alternate, in Russia and other places I think, i suppose my point being its not surprising that someone on a Chinese arts sub forum has no idea who Marcello is, nor that someone who has fought allot might view strict wrestling from a slightly different view point as those of us who love to grapple for the fun of it
     
  18. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Why do those videos reference "sparring"?All i saw were guys trying to catch the others balance in an extremely limited rule set.Extremely limited. Not much in the way of sparring.

    I guess one can refer to any non-cooperative multi person practice as "sparring"--- but it seems a little ingenuous, and some of us have spent decades laughing at the popular and erroneous view that sparring in TC = t'ui shou.

    Which it don't.
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Cool, good to know!
    If it helps I think the karate guy, did really well against the wrestler.

    His wrist control stickyness was really quite good!
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
  20. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Back to this again.

    I disagree. I call any non co-operative practice in any style sparring (sparring matches, sparring drills.........).

    Just because boxing doesn't allow kicks or groundwork doesn't make that NOT sparring. Just because BJJ or wrestling doesn't allow strikes doesn't make it NOT sparring. Many styles fight with a limited rule set. TCC is not alone in this. Push hands is only one of many. But to me and some other people, this is our definition of sparring.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015

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