Real? Angry White Pyjamas?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Taliar, Mar 18, 2005.

  1. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    I have just finished reading "Angry White Pyjama's", and the book really impressed me and totally changed my view of Aikido.

    From posts I have read etc there seems to be some that express the thought that "Aikido is Love" and seem to indicate aikido is a very soft style. However I have also seen that some say the softer style was pushed forward by Ueshiba later in life perhaps due to his age dictating his style. And the book certainly seemed to indicate that Aikido is more about controlled anger and hurting people quickly than love.

    As a direct result of reading this book I would love to add some aikido to my MA training, however my question is, how like the atmosphere described in this book can I expect my local club to be. Does it vary greatly by club or is there a general overall consensus in most clubs.

    I hope I have caused no offense in this post.
     
  2. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    It varies massively from club to club and style to style.

    The aikido I have been taught was so soft as to be useless, I feel I could use a little of it but only because I have develped the fitness and timing for it from TKD sparring and the like.

    On the other hand I'm sure there are schols out there that teach a harder style like that in "Angry white pyjamas" and if I found one with an open minded sensei I wouldnt hesitate to study there.
     
  3. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Taliar - the style to seek out is Yoshinkan, as taught to Robt. Twigger and described in his book. This is a very direct and physically powerful style which reflects the youthful strength and vigour of O Sensei. His student Gozo Shioda spread this style internationally.

    Yes, hurting people quickly is very desirable - damaging them is not. We use pain to achieve compliance but try to avoid leaving an attacker damaged unless it is in a SD context when some damage may be necesary to defend oneself. ('Pain moves brain' I was taught.)

    Some other styles would frown on using pain as a tool but I really have a mental block when they describe applying locks which stop attacks but are not intended to use pain to control the attacker???!

    I'll apologise now for summarising as it will be sure to offend someone, but here's my view:

    In the UK seek out Yoshinkan or Shudokan (not Shodokan) as asociations teaching this style. Most hard style clubs are Yoshinkan/Shudokan, most softer style clubs use 'Ki' or refer to Koichi Tohei as their inspiration (master).

    Don't be overly impressed by Twigger. He is writing to entertain. ALL Aikido has the same basis and even Yoshinkan students learn how to be more effective in the use of of 'ki' energy as time progresses. Visit a couple of clubs to see what impresses. However, I would advise that there is a world of difference between a full -on hard style Yoshinkan approach to a given attack and a soft-style 'Ki Aikido' approach at the other extreme. One may go for a centre-line defence, the other for a wide circular motion.

    Clubs calling themselves 'Aikikai' or 'traditional' will need more exploration as they may fall between the two extremes described, but you will need to check out how far along the 'hard-soft' continuum they lie.

    Whatever they call themselves, check out their lineage and links to Japanese masters. This forum is one way of doing so.

    Finally, ALL styles may be effective, all associations and instructors may not be! Don't judge a style from one club. Try the British Aikido Board website for a list of clubs near you and visit the websites of asociations as the BAB does not include them all. Have fun on your journey! :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2005
  4. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

    That is untrue the softer side was pushed by his son. The founder always insisted on very hard training in his dojo in Iwama and that was for 30 years until the day he died, it was always hard, then soft, then flowing training with at least 65% of all training including weapons where basic/kihon or hard.
    People talk about the old vids of Osensei where he is old and all he does in them are kinonagare(flowing techs or very advanced).
    My teacher told me that was because 1. he never showed the real kihon training (the most important) because he didint want anyone to steal his techs . ( this happened all the time with the masters)
    and 2. becuase he was an old man who had just spent 60 years practicing mostly the basics, so the hard stuff was very easy. The founder even said himself that what he was doing in his late years was a result of 60 years of kihon training.
    Some people say he never really taught Aikido outside of Iwama. He only ever demostrated. which would take us back to point 1.( im just saying What SAITO SENSEI says).
    I was told a story in Japan about the founders son and the hombu, and why its different to Iwama training. Basically the story goes that his son hated the training in Iwama so much that when the founder gave him the chance to return to Tokyo to about the hombu, he was on the first train out of the village and back to the city.
    So while the founder stayed in Iwama developing the Aikiken and Jo the son was in Tokyo changing his style of Aikido to a lighter style with its training mainly in flowing al the time.(dont get me wrong the doshu was dynamite)
    If you look at some of the principles left out in the Hombu, like always using kiai, always grip stong, Always train mostly in kihon and the use of the System of ken and jo.
    Now im not saying this is my opinion its what i and many studenst have been told by our teacher Saito Sensei.

    Anyway try these guys-http://www.iwamaryuwales.co.uk/
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2005
  5. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

  6. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    An excellent article, which gives me two questions:
    If, as the article says, only Yoichiro (Hoken) Inoue, Gozo Shioda, and Tsutomu Yukawa spent a reasonable length of time being taught by O Sensei pre-war, surely they are the true representation of his aikido?
    If the main teachers post-war, such as Tohei and the Doshu, spent reltively little time training with him, and they are responsible for much of Aikikai practice, is what is now being taught the aikido of O Sensei or the softer version they created?
    I had the impression that O Sensei taught these people differently due to his own age or their aptitudes, but I interpret the article as meaning that he taught a consistent hard style which his son and Tohei watered down, avoiding O Sensei's 'interference' in later years. Can that really be true or are there too many assumptions in the article?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2005
  7. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    If you ever get to London go train with Dave Rubens (He is mentioned briefly in the book - he had previously done the course and stayed on as an assistant instructor) his dojo is the Meidokan http://www.meido.demon.co.uk/ (NOTE this is a bit of an old website but will give the basic details).

    Dave is a GREAT guy and though I've never the time to train with him in Aikido I happily acknowledge that as my loss :(

    All the best.

    Robert.
     
  8. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

    They are a direct representation of pre-war Aiki, Which is somewhere betweeen what Osenseis Aikido became in Iwama and the Transitional period of his aikijujitsu before the war. Basically Aikido was not really called Aikido or should i say Aikido was not fully developed until the Iwama years, retiring to Iwama was the plan to properly develop Aikido.

    Tohei and Doshu spent years with Osensei, but it was on and off for tohei, i think his longest unbroken period with the founder was 10 years. Doshu was the founders son so of course he received great training.
    But these guys and many others went different ways as to how the founder would teach. hence the softer styles. Saito sensei who lived in Iwama was just a lucky man in the right place at the righth time. He spent 26 years unbroken with the founder and only the founder, the difference is alot of the honbu shihans where mostly students of doshu or tohei.

    Most people in Iwama would say yes but most people in the Aikikai would say no, hell there are people in the Aikikai who have never even heard of Iwama. Some say the founder only taught there for 10 years when it was 30. The biggest one that the aikikai get wrong is that Osensei never had a weapons system for Aikido.
    You may want to read this article from the new doshu-
    http://www.iwama-ryu-tr.org/eng/article.html
     
  9. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Correct me if I'm wrong however, wasn't it M. Saito who formulated the Aiki-ken and jo forms into a "system" for teaching others ?

    If that is the case then, although he may well have been teaching the technical aspects and applications as taught to him by the founder, the "system" you refer to in your comment above, didn't then formally exist until Saito Sensei brought it into being. if that's the case, with respect, it isn't the founders "system" even though the technical apects contained within it are.

    I don't even profess to understand the political or otherwise 'reasons' for the attitude that seems to exist between Aikikai and Iwama-ryu Ha. And frankly I care less about knowing. Aikido is Aikido, what's important is whether one's aikido is good or bad - the style of aikido is pretty much irrelivent providing one isn't studying Mickey Mouse-Ryu.

    The debate whether Iwama-ryu is the "real" "authentic" or "complete" aikido of the founder only becomes an issue (for me) when someone tries to tell me by default that the aikido I've studied for the last 17+ years is "unreal" "not authentic" or incomplete" simply because (and said with the utmost respect) I don't study Iwama-Ryu.

    Sorry for the slight detract from the thrust of the thread.

    Regards

    Dave
     
  10. aikiscotsman

    aikiscotsman Banned Banned

    Yes your correct dave, Saito put all of the founders weapons system into a more understandable system. As i stated before, Saito alwasy said the founder never really had a simple system for teaching, he just had a massive computer for a brain, where he could access what he wanted. But as saito said he felt this was no good for teaching large amounts, hence the mention of KATA. The founder already had the saburi, awaze practice and kumi jo and kumi tachi, plus many others.
    I totally agree with you dave so long as it works and the traing is very good.
    I think thats why a lot of people left the Aikikai as they could see the differences them selves.
    As ive said before there are just as many bad Iwama schools as very effective Aikikai styles and there are plenty.
    I do believe though that todasy representation of Honbu Aikido is No where like the Old school teachers there.
    Im not a very big fan of todays Honbu Aikido or the new doshus Aikido. They have great movement and blending, but only if you want to play the game. I feel alot of these guys would crumble if they whee grabbed/restrained properly with a strong effective grip.
     
  11. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    Sounds like I would have enjoyed Saito's modus operandi as well as Shioda's.

    I agree that the style is less important - years of dedication under a good teacher of any style ought to pay off. However, try moving from a hard to a softer style and it's a different story IMHO:
    Having studied Shudokan (Yoshinkan) for a long time I remained in blissful ignorance of other styles until a couple of years ago when I moved to a new area and poked about a bit, finding Shodokan (Tomiki) and Kai Shin Kai ('Traditional') as well as a Ki Akido club. Hardly recognised any of the vocabulary or techniques and couldn't unlearn my own style so I decided not to clutter up those Sensei's classes. No Kihon Dosa, no weapons (in some/rubber in others), lots of arm waving grandiose 'atemi' gestures, no side breakfalls or back breakfalls, etc etc - it was like a different art altogether. (I know, I should start my own club, but I'm too old, too busted up, can't commit to every week, too isolated and much more importantly - too lazy!)

    As to whether there are UK clubs with the atmosphere described by Twigger in the book: outside of Yoshinkan styles, I have seen none in Aikido - which doesn't mean there aren't any, lol. So I stick be recommending Yoshinkan in the UK as it seems likely to be what the original questioner was looking for. If you fancy something 'same, same but different' try Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2005
  12. Taliar

    Taliar Train harder!

    Thanks for all the great and very helpful replys.
     

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