Howdy. I just joined the forums today, and this is my first post. Lessee, here are a few things about me that you might need to know in order to answer my questions: I'm 23 (I turn 24 in June), and Tai Chi is the first martial art I've ever attempted to learn. I'm heavily overweight (5'11 347 lbs), and supplement my Tai Chi practice with lots of stance training and weight lifting 3 days a week and a "diet" of sorts, as well as daily walks up a steep hill (about 1/3 a mile a day, which I know isn't enough, but is all I have time for these days). My Tai Chi class is a college class, and I'm learning the Yang Style short form (24). I've been learning since late January, and I've almost learned the short form in its entirety, though I won't be winning any competitions. My professor has shown us martial applications of every form as he introduces it to us, and he plans to have us practice push hands towards the end of the semester while we refine the form. My questions are: - Is Tai Chi a martial art which I can actually use to protect myself? - I'm considering learning a new style/school of Tai Chi with new forms after a year or so of practicing the 24 form to get myself used to Tai Chi. How many forms are there for other schools/styles on average, and which ones are more likely to support weapon training (Preferably cane or staff)? - How long on average does it take to get to a level where one can spar/push hands? I like the meditative qualities of Tai Chi, but I'd also like to put the forms I've been learning into practice in order to better understand and perfect them. - I'm still having trouble with the "Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg" stance when I go through the forms in class, but I'm much better when I practice by myself. Is it a confidence problem, or is it because I'm used to moving at my own pace? - I'm still not matching my breath very well to some of the forms. I'm doing my best to learn by the sound of the breathing of others in my class and to not force it, but it seems like I'm progressing slowly, which worries me because I get a grade in this course depending on how well I perform the full form by the end of the semester. Is more practice the only cure for this? - I'm shy about practicing Tai Chi where others outside of the class can see me, which essentially limits me to practicing in my tiny closet of a dorm room. Most of the other people in my class don't have this problem (the majority of them are performing arts majors). If you were me, how would you ease out of the uncomfortableness of practicing in public?
With dedicated practice and a good teacher, yes. Why? You won't have got the most possible out of the Short Form in after a year. Keep practicing. It's not accumulation you need, but practice. It depends on how much you're putting into your practice. Practice, practice, practice... Practice, practice, practice.... The only way you can get used to it is to do it. Find somewhere quiet, and go for it. Expect some heckling, but when it happens, smile and carry on.
Hi Grammish, Just keep training, as long as you enjoy it, I believe most of your questions you will be able to answer for yourself over time. As for using Tai Chi to protect yourself, Tai Chi uses a structured approach to learning so the focus is on building good fundamentals. What I'm saying is that you might not be able to use Tai Chi to protect yourself for a very long time because not only do you need to first build good structure (fundamentals) but in addition you will have to build fighting spirit and gain experience in hand-to-hand combat (e.g. sparring or something like that). Note: This does not mean that lessons learned from training in Tai Chi cannot help you protect yourself.
But again, this depends on the school. Some schools/teachers are able to bring about better results, faster than others - and some are rubbish no matter how long you practice.
Very true, but it is all relative. Some students will pick up things faster than others too. I'm sure we both can agree that it takes a lot of practice (time) to develop good Tai Chi fundamentals. I go by a relative scale that someone on a purely internal arts path to martial arts (does not cross-train in a hard style like Muay Thai or boxing) could be taught in about 10 years to be as good or better than someone of about 2-3 years in Muay Thai. Roughly speaking, this is based on conversations with some of my teachers who have studied both Internal Arts and hard-style martial arts.
What happens if the person training in Muay Thai has also studied for ten years? After lifting weights today, I practiced for a good half hour before my legs and upper back completely quit on me (I upped the weight by 10 lbs on my deadlifts and squats, so my legs were hurting anyway). The burn from the weightlifting made me feel which muscles I was using in the forms more keenly. It helped me practice relaxing muscles that shouldn't have been tightened while I was practicing, especially in my shoulders, abs, and upper back. Is this something others do while learning to listen to their body?
They retire!!! Seriously though, Muay Thai is hard on the body. As you get older, you either learn to use good technique and be "softer" (be strong but in a relaxed manner and use good timing) or else you will end up breaking your body. I believe that people in any hard style for many years find value in learning the same lessons that internal styles teach from day one. I know I have. One of the benefits of going slowly is that you can breakdown all the movements like a science and really listen to your body.
Well hello. Yes Tai Chi is a martial art, but not the way you are doing it. That’s probably not a problem as you clearly enjoy what you are doing and its more or less the perfect exercise for a guy of your build. Why so keen to pick up another style? Most TCC just has jian (straight sword) Dao (knife or curved sword) and spear....which may look and be taught as a staff. Really fast. Most people pick up the principles of freestyle pushing hands and can be training as opposed to 'learning' in about 4 hours. Sparring is the same but with a bias for confidence. Just do it as you feel comfortable. Dont match your breath, just ignore your breath and let your body take care of it for you. I suggest a ninja suit. This has two plus points: 1/ It will draw attention to you thus over time you will become less self conscious 2/ The mask will hide your identity. For a larger guy like you who is going to be dropping in weight, you will want to pick one up a few sizes smaller than you would normally wear.
Grammish, best advice I can offer is do find out if they'll teach you the nei gung. Do the 100 days and by the end of that you will be on the way to having the body to do Tai Chi. The Bear.
But theres Nei Gung and then theres Nei Gung! Then Theres Nei Kung, Qi Gung, Chi Gung, Qi Kung, Chi Gong.
Our professor taught us Qigung, and I practice it every day, and twice on the three days a week that I have my Taiji class. I practice it when I wake up and after naps in order to work out the kinks from my yoga-esque sleep contortions. At first my arms and back got tired easily, but now the only problem I have is that my right foot tends to cramp up for some reason when I practice it.
We finished learning the whole form today in class, and I've spent half of my day practicing it and getting weird looks from the people walking past me. My form is still terrible. I've been using this DVD and the book by authored by the same people as a practice aid. It shows the 24 form from different angles angles, as well as some of their martial applications, and also a demonstration of the 48 form that I haven't looked at yet. http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/internal/taijiquan/tai_chi_chuan_24_48_DVD
Hi, all. I'm showing up after posting a long time ago, and now only managed to wander back... Grammish, is your professor available to give some specific instruction to you? I suspect that you would get some great results with just a few minutes of one-on-one time, provided your instructor knows their stuff. What is your difficulty with Golden Rooster? We might have tips that could help you be a little more confident with it. As far as performing in public, I totally understand. It's one thing to run through forms in a class setting, and another to do them out where all the non tai chi people tend to stare. Perhaps if you worked very early in the morning? Most college kids don't get up super early, and that might be an ideal time to go out into an open area and run through your form a few times. You'll get the fresh, outside air, and you won't feel like you're under a microscope. I'm on the fence about sparring with tai chi. I've been told that it's something that only the very experienced should attempt, mostly because it's way too easy to seriously injure your opponent. Controlled application exercises and pushing hands is one thing, but actual sparring might not be a good idea. Plus, to me, there's a philosophical standpoint about sparring being related both defense and attacking, and I don't personally like applying the latter. Anyway...hello, and thanks for starting the thread!
I have an older VHS version of Liang's 24,Grammish.Some fun applications on there. Trouble you're having with Golden Rooster-(y'know,everyone pretty much used to use the other term for a male fowl,but I guess it's not considered "genteel" enough nowadays,plus the mods would probably block it out here)- in your class setting is probably just some self consciousness. As a dear departed friend of mine would say,you'll get over it. You'll get over the stares from onlookers,too.At least TC isn't as unheard of as it was when I started.We used to get more than passing remarks-people in autos, or outside if we were inside used to yell REALLY rude things.Ah well,dealing with that is good training itself. Sparring in any system has the potential for injury.Boxing,Muay Thai,Silat,Kali,ever see Judo randori?Owwww.The idea that sparring in TC is too dangerous for any but highly experienced practitioners is,well,silly.Unless one feels the same applies to all systems. The late Fu,Zhong-wen,when asked if TC had sparring said "Sure, the Yang kids used to spar all the time.That's just the way it was."(Translated from the Chinese,of course).Note he used a term translated to "kids". In any system's sparring there are things within the system one doesn't do in the context of sparring.I don't know any Thai boxers who have habit of breaking their classmates faces with elbows. Wouldn't be anyone left to spar with .Silat players don't stomp down above and follow through into the kneecap of their brethren.Wing Chun guys don't eye jab their buddies,etc. There are a lot of things one gets out of a freer practice as opposed to just set application practice.Unpredictability of one's opponent,having to alter one's actions mid-stream,bridging,constant positional adjustment in relation to opponent,etc. There's also something very important-getting experienced in getting nailed and dealing with it.A disciple of the late Tung,Ying-ch'ieh in an article in TC Magazine said one could have great structure,good power,etc,but that all goes out the window if it's the very first time one takes a good shot to the face. Rockland,if you have a personal philosophical problem with attacking,ok,that's your thing.There's certainly nothing in the old writings which oppose the idea,tho'.Attacking should be learned however,as a real life situation may demand such action.It's just tactics,and there is no "one size fits all". Grammish,stick with it.Rockland,welcome back-don't be a stranger.
I guess I'm treading a fine line with regard to the concept of attacking. I think of the martial aspect of TTC as more of a defensive approach. You attack me, and I will make you pay. Sparring suggests that one participant is the aggressor. I tend to think of TTC in the taoist sense, in terms like bending and yielding, not the way I would think of an attacker. Anyway, I don't discount that there is great value in learning application. My concern is what point in a student's career should the free use of application be encouraged. It should be started softly and slowly, and increased as skill improves. I certainly wouldn't advise a person with a couple of months of forms under their belt to jump into full sparring. Taking a hit to the face is one thing; snapping an elbow, dislocating a knee, or taking a full strike to a vital point is something else. Here's another thought that crossed my mind, and I'll just throw it out for discussion: If I am learning to spar by pulling punches and limiting the force I use, will that translate to real-world situations when I need to defend myself? Could repetitve learning of doing something halfway keep me from going "all the way" when the situation requires it?
I am not sure about your comment that the Taoist way is yielding, however, regarding the defence/attack aspect, I see it more as defending my personal space. Learning techniques to try to ward off (scuse the pun) aggression but confident that if that fails I would have no hesitation in attacking first when said space is threatened. I agree that very new students should not be learning applications. Within each students learning scale and ability, the martial aspect should increase accordingly. To which end, and to address your last point, at some stage you need to get padded up and take it as full power as possible. There really is no alternative to this, imo.
