Question on Terry Wingrove

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Moosey, Jul 10, 2011.

  1. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I can send Fish round this weekend if you like? :D

    I need a trip up to visit you soon actually Mike, I'll drop you a PM in a couple of weeks if the offer's still open?

  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    he said slap, not jumping headbutt
  3. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I shall wear my old 2-tone platform shoes and be impervious to his headbutts and nutslaps.

    Yes, of course, you'll be very welcome.

  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I was only going by one of the vids where a guy comes at Terry with a bokken (bokuto?), receives a slap upside the listener and then is left on the floor for a minute or so before being helped up by someone else and then revived with that hokey kyusho jitsu neck rub.
  5. DMC

    DMC New Member

    Hi everyone, my first time on, not a 'loyal cultish follower' just someone who considers myself Sensei Wingrove's student and I'm very happy with that. Regarding Sensei Wingrove I think that the way he invites all unbeleivers to come to his seminars says it all really, he's not hiding away, he beleives in what he does, and he's not challenging anyone, just willing to teach you. He knows(and so do I having often been on the receiving end) that his technique hurts BAD and anyone attending a seminar and asking him to show them will go away knowing that. Regarding injuries, the whole point here is that the technique he uses has levels and he only temporarily disables students, he doesn't maim or kill them, although it's easy to see how he could lift the level to do just that. Whilst practicing sports type karate I've had three sets of busted ribs, multiple broken fingers and toes etc, but with Sensei wingrove I've never been given a lasting injury despite the pain of his technique being worse than a cracked (floating) rib in the moment he's done it.Someone said earlier that Sensei Wingrove does not teach a specific named Koryu and he doesn't, but his tecnique is Koryu and not something you would be taught in any martial art intended for sport. He very often shows the original forms of techniques which were cleaned up for sporting purposes. These techniques (the cleaned up ones) are considered dangerous (and may be in the right hands) but the original forms are far more so, and often require very little effort to acheive, because they are so much more efficient (painful).
    We know that humans have fought each other for (I'm reliably told by my son) 180,000 years. Are we to imagine that in all that time the ultimate methods of self defence which have been discovered have been of the 'ground and pound' variety? In every other way we advance,tecnology, sciences etc, but have there been advances in the science of causing pain and other disabling methods to the human body? Of course there have. Just as , for instance, more locks and holds have developed through trial and error, so other aspects of martial arts have developed also, but not out in the open, at least not in the case of Japanese 'hiden waza' which was only taught to certain students. The idea that there was , in fact, no hiden waza would be ridiculous, OF COURSE man has developed has developed more than just ground and pound, we just don't get taught it often because that knowledge was restricted to so few and most are now passed away. Sensei Wingrove learned hiden waza from teachers born in the 1880's /90's, jutsu teachers, and the moment you feel it you know you're dealing with something different.
    As I say I'm new here and I think it may be worth mentioning that the reason I tend to stay away from forums is that there always seems to be someone who wants to beat someone up (or rip out their bumhole) (interesting , awful to witness i'd imagine) . For me self defence is (or should be ) about normal people (eg joe/ joanna bloggs off the street) and not about 'The Cage' or challenging someone to see who's hardest and all that macho crap. OK if you're an all-round MMA expert all pumped up and ready to go, you're going to cause your mugger a big problem. A normal person may need technique designed to disable, maim, even kill with minimum effort. This is what Sensei Wingrove teaches and this is what I want to learn, that's why I'm in his cult :)
    Lastly about the slap that happened on the film. If someone is focusing forward eg with a sword or anything else, they 'put their mind there' (I think there's something about that in some great old book, possibly 'The Life Giving Sword' can't remember offhand.Anyway with their focus going forward their brain least expects a strike from behind, therefore such a strike could be more effective. (Please correct me if wrong Momotaro , or can I call you Teddy Bear?) (Ooh it's 'The Unfettered Mind' by Takuan Soho, just remembered). Interestingly and regarding the comments about the uke coming in too soft and all that, if he'd come in with more speed (and tension) and Sensei Wingrove had done the same technique with only the same transmission, uke would probably have felt it worse.
    Anyway that's my 5 pence worth except to say that, in reality, there's no cult, just a group (from many varied clubs/arts) who come together for the Wingrove experience.
    In the future martial artists could be asked the question 'Where did you learn your hiden?' Some will say 'What's hiden?' As a student of martial arts I'm so glad that I won't be in that position, and this is due to Sensei Wingrove's teaching alone, and I thank him for that. I hope that anyone interested in the old teachings will come along to the next seminar and find out for themselves what the buzz is about. Cheers, Dave.
    ps if you don't agree at least don't rip out my bumhole...:(
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Paragraphs please.

    Koryu is koryu simple as that.

    He's not teaching one, please go look up what it means to be a koryu.

    The sword waza was nonsensical for the reasons I've listed.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  7. DMC

    DMC New Member

    Sorry did I use the wrong word? I'm not claiming to be an expert and it's not my native tongue, I simply meant old school original form which is what I'm learning, as opposed to cleaned up sport form, I do apologise.
    And for the lack of paragraphing, which I've been scolded for before now.
  8. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Oh gods now we're getting the whole deadly techniques crap. Yup, this old man could kill me with his bare hands, no problem. lol gtfo.
  9. Guyin

    Guyin Old Cynic


    Sorry mate, that option simply doesn't exist. There are no 'easy' options, never have been, never will be, even with an AK47 or similar.... Fighting is never easy, it's a **** deal.

    Terry is clearly an acquired taste, and (obviously) not my cup of tea.

    If anyone is in to history, classical replication of the arts, or 'the myths' of the orient maybe he's the man to find. But really, anyone who really has the slightest grip on violence and fighting today would do as I do and buy a few pairs of socks...

    I've been laughing my socks off at some of the nonesense on his clips.

    Good luck to him and his students, but please, don't pretend it's anything other than pretentious 'wishful thinking' when the **** really hits the fan!
  10. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    As I said before the only people I've witnessed being brought to a considerably reduced state of consciousness are Mr Wingrove's own long term students. Its not something that happens to Jo Bloggs attending his first TW seminar.

    As for the hokey kyusho neck rub, I'm not sure I've seen the video you're looking at but I suspect (even just from your description) that you're looking at some traditional katsu used to either stimulate the nervous system or just relax the neck muscles. From your description the person presumably wasn't fully unconscious (or they wouldn't have just been left lying on the floor) and seems to have been coming round on their own anyway.

    That's a far cry from the Dillmanesque 'chi restoration'. In Dillman's version there'd typically be several assistants standing ready to 'help' the victim to the ground then apply the hokey cokey neck rub before they'd had the chance to come round on their own (assuming they were even remotely knocked out in the first place).

  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It's the vid from earlier in the thread Mike.


    The guy goes down for 20 seconds before being helped by someone (a guy that had previously been put on the deck too).
    And what I said earlier about force in and force given back is very evident.
    The "attacker" isn't putting any force in at all. Zero.
    He gets put on the deck, dazed for 20 seconds and needs a neck massage.
    Dunno what that's teaching anyone to be honest.
  12. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Just a friendly reminder that MAP has a family friendly policy on language Guyin, please tone it down a notch. :)

  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I still stand by my initial "hmmmmmm...."

    It teaches me that if you do that to me the first time in a demo you had better not pick me again because I don't care how old or venerable you are going down
  14. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    OK, thanks for the clarification.

    So maybe its not your cup of tea. You're right in that the attack with the bokken is not realistic, but conversely it doesn't look to me like TW is striking terribly hard. What he is doing is striking accurately. I've certainly been struck much harder myself many times (but with somewhat less effect) when practising Karate-do or Taekwondo. Are you sure you're not confusing the effect of the blow with the force used?

    Re: unconsciousness, I don't see anyone in that clip being knocked unconscious. Dazed and disorientated yes, but not unconscious. I grant that I wouldn't personally want to be that dazed very many times in one training session!

  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    What difference does it make?
    If it was hard (and accurate) enough to cause, from outward appearances, something that would be considered a KO (or TKO) in boxing or MMA it was a blow that I personally think is too hard in what is a very low energy demo.
  16. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I still think his students are exaggerating. Looks like that video with the old kiai master.
  17. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Either way a KO/TKO works by having a neurological effect. I think the main difference is that a hard blow to a (relatively) non-specific target causes rapid acceleration of the brain (that's how the knock-out is achieved) with all the attendant risks of brain damage that go with it. A lighter blow to a more specific target can (assuming its done correctly) create a neurological overload (and hence the knock-out) without anything like the same degree of acceleration and hence without the same risk of brain damage.

    In reality you'd still whack it hard and not worry overly about the brain damage, but I don't think that's really appropriate in practice. Personally I'd much rather be put 'out' a few times in the way that TW demonstrates in this vid, than engage in hard contact sparring with gloves that has the certainty of rapid brain acceleration.

  18. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    If I had only seen videos and not experienced it for myself I would agree with you. It looks implausible and I do understand your scepticism. But having been on the receiving end of some of TW's techniques I know how painful and disorientating they can be.

  19. jumpfor joy

    jumpfor joy Valued Member

    mr head injury

    You only get one brain, maybe these guys got hit too many times...thats just wacko.
  20. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    never seen you post in my life but you said it!

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