I have a question for all you HEMA folks who practice with the longsword. When you spar/fence, what kind of equipment do you use? It seems like a regular epee or schlager wouldn't work out to well if you're slashing as well as thrusting, and I would think that a more rigid sword would require more protective gear. I've been wanting to try and find a way to fence using Chinese swordsmanship, but it seems like people would just get injured lots if we used wooden straightswords. Thanks.
OK, this is a simple question with a complicated answer. Really, the best place to ask would be at the Sword Forum International website, on their Historical European Swordsanship forum - most of the main players hang out there and this issue has been addressed many times in the past. First thing to consider is the level of contact you're using - light, relying mostly on the fencers' control of their weapons, through to full contact. Even "full contact" still requires a degree of control, of course. Second, weapon type; most common are padded swords, modified shinai, wasters (wooden facsimile swords), aluminium blades, and steel. Many groups train with several types depending on what type of fencing they're doing. Third, armour type; "light armour" usually refers to a very basic kit, often just a fencing mask, groin protection and gloves. The other extreme is full armour, either a replica of historical armour in various styles (chain mail, plate, etc.) or combinations of gear adapted from modern sports such as hockey and BMX racing. As a general rule, only steel armour is capable of withstanding steel swords. Before making any of these choices it pays to ask around, because mis-matching control/contact level, weapon type and armour type is a recipe for disaster. Anyway, there are numerous websites and guides to constructing/purchasing all of these items of equipment. Let me know more specifically what you have in mind for your Chinese swordsmanship project and I'll be able to point you in the right direction. Cheers, Tony
Thanks for your help. Since the structure of the hilt is a very big part of controlling and using the straightsword, I feel that using a Shinai or something similar wouldn't work out too well. The original idea was to use fencing masks, gorgets, wooden straightswords, and some kind of hand protection. It would probably be light-contact fencing. My big concern is that a thrust from a wooden sword can still do a lot of damage, especially if the defender walks into it.
Straightsword - as in gim? If so, there was a very detailed article on gim fencing, based on WMA equipment, etc. in one of the major MA magazines (either Black Belt of IKF) about ten years ago. It would be worth tracking down as it details not only the mechanics, but also the aesthetics of the sport. Basically, the author recommended mounting a schlager blade in a gim hilt. If that would work for what you have in mind, then the armour, etc. would be pretty straightforward - plenty of online information about armouring vs. schlagers. The SCA (Society for creative Anachronism) uses them to stand in for rapier blades.
In The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (ARMA) free play with both wooden swords (wasters) and blunt steel swords play a major role in our training. This free play is hard and intense but it is always done with control and with safety in mind. Although a few members have suffered a broken finger (seems to always be th pinky finger), to the best of my knowledge no ARMA scholar has every suffered a major injury from free play. Full speed sparring is conducted with padded swords.
I'd allso like to state that there are different styles of WMA-fencing, and depending on what style of fencing you want to do do allso play a part in choosing protective gear; not only the swords or the contact lvl. or speed. Some modern martial-sports-systems (like the scandinavian Haerkamp-system) have only padded gloves as obligatoric protection as the system makes injuries little likely (no head-hits allowed, not allowed to parry upwards, no straight thrusts allowed, not allowed to cut with the false edge, only light contact hits allowed, etc.) If you -on the other hand- try to re-create a historical weastern martial manual (like Fior di Battaglia ), you'll realise that theese systems were designed to penentrate protective gear, and you'll find that in order to explore the system in somthing remotely resembeling historical accurasy, you'll have to have full medieval protective gear (as icehockey-headgear with bars are to wide, plexi-glass may crack, etc.) I allmost lost my eye on a show only 4 weeks ago, when attempting an improvised full-speed display of the fiore system (Luckily we chose to use wooden swords, not blunt metal on that show )
I'm thinking I might try fencing masks, wooden swords, and gloves (and maybe some kind of jacket or chest protector). I'm very intrigued by this idea of bit a schlager blade on a straightsword/gim/jian hilt, though (I think I might have to wait til I'm a bit more financially secure to try constructing one). If you can find anymore information about that article, I would be ETERNALLY grateful to you. What would you recomend for gloves? Attacking the hands is a very big part of chinese straightsword, but so is proper gripping.
I'd be interested in that article myself. My teacher and I both fence and have been knocking the idea back and forth for months about using a pair of epee blades on jian hilts and then going at it using our fencing gear (since it's what our epee bouts usually progress towards when possible anyway). For gloves, decent fitting fencing gloves have kept my hands intact through years of impacts without hindering grip or dexterity too greatly.
OK, inspired by the offer of eternal gratitude, I just dug out my old MA mag collection and I still have a copy of the issue I mentioned; Inside Kung Fu, July, 1996. The article is called "Gim Fencing - Unravelling the Riddle of Steel" and was written by a Wah Lum instructor named Bruce Cohen. It details the construction of the fencing weapon by combining the gim hilt with a schlager blade, armoring, training drills, etc. You may be able to purchase a back-issue from the publishers - otherwise, Mr. Cohen may be contactable over the Net. Both wooden blades and shlagers are a good deal heavier and more rigid than epees and a regular sport fencing glove won't be enough protection, particularly if you anticipate doing a lot of cuts to the hand and wrist. Heavy motorcycle gloves, especially the type with internal shields for the knuckles, are OK for schlager but may be too light for a wooden blade, depending on how hard you hit, etc; lacrosse gloves will work, too. If you're planning on doing solid contact fencing with hardwood swords, then you need a lot of armor. Make sure you use a 3-weapon fencing mask rather than just a foil mask, and even then, a 3-weapon mask isn't really designed to cope with anything heavier than a modern sport fencing weapon. You'll need a gorget (throat protector), collarbone, sternum and rib protection - hockey torso shields are good - and elbow, knee/shin and groin shields (available for many sports). The big difference is that a steel blade like a shlager will flex on impact which reduces the danger, but hardwood obviously has no flex so you have to compensate with stronger armor. Hope this helps
One more detail - are we talking about a single- or double-handed gim? Makes a big difference re. blade, armour, etc.
Devon, you are the man. Here's that eternal gratitude I promised. m_-_-_m m_-_-_m m_-_-_m m_-_-_m (that's the kowtow emoticon, by the way). I couldn't find the article online (not surprising), but I did find Bruce Cohen's email adress and sent a message to him. These would be single handed straightswords, and maybe single handed sabres (broadswords, dao) as well. How do you think welding gloves would fair for light-contact wooden sword fencing? The SCA people I trained with recomended them for schlager as they were tough, cheap, and meant to be sweat in (handy for exercise).
Sorry, welding gloves are too light to provide any real protection against wooden blades. They'll prevent cuts and abrasions from glancing or sliding contact, but that's all. You'd be a lot safer with lacrosse gloves, which are designed specifically to protect against impact from hardwood and still provide good grip.
Most of the guys I know use steel armour over a padded gambeson/arming vest as modern materials just won't hack the pace with real swords... For hand protection you really need to be investing in correct gear like proper articulated steel & padded leather gauntlets. For head protection a steel helm is required. Body needs a decent breastplate with paulrons and all the trimmings. A maille hauberk is advisable for protection against stabbing. IOW you need to find a local armourer and spend up large!
Reiki, I agree that you need steel armor if you're primarily fencing with steel blunts, especially longswords, but McClaw was asking about light contact, single-handed gim fencing - much closer to rapier than to longsword. Devon
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but here are my $0.02: When I spar longsword, some padded weapons require no more protection than a fencing mask (or hoeckey helmet) and leather gloves. In fact, with people I trust, I'll fence with wasters, and the mask and gloves. Using hockey gloves and a fencing mask is even possible with light aluminum wasters, provided there is control. There are also excellent steel sparring weapons modeled on the "federschwert" type trainers (a longsword foil, if you will) that were used historically, though I'd definitely use more protection... probably a mask, hockey gloves and a gambeson. We've found the Hanwei/Paul Chen practice rapiers (schlager baldes) to work really well, though I've heard the longer blades are whippy. The short ones work very well, and I've used one sparring every week for about a year. However, even with padded weapons (though very safe, IME), you have to very careful about your thrusts. And no amount of protection will save you from someone who's out to "prove something", or has too little experience to be sparring with anything more than padded weapons in the first place. Best regards, -Mark
