Hello, Hope you don't wind this question! I have always been interested in the PFS approach to JKD/streetfighting. Principally because Vunak has always been presented as having tested himself and his art "for real." My question to you is: do you "rate" Vunak's approach as being better than the UK RBSD guys such as Geoff Thompson and Peter Consterdine (to give two examples)? If so, what does PFS have that other guys in the RBSD field may not have? I am asking out of genuine interest, and have NO "allegiance" to any instructor. So this isn't an attempt at comparing per se. I like the stuff you write, and respect your opinion, and seeing as you have actually trained with Vunak, I'd like to see what you think on this point.
Hello there! It is funny you mention Geoff and Peter because i am a huge advocate of their approach too - in fact as has been mentioned before i am actually qualified as a BCA Instructor (or should i say "was" as I have not been an active BCA member for a few years now). The short answer to do I prefer Vu's approach is "yes...and no". Essentially the approach is the same - pragmatic approaches to fighting, competency in all ranges, pressure testing techniques, always open to new stuff, seek out as many decent trainers as you can etc...etc... The biggest difference is down to emphasis on psyhological and physiological aspects. Geoff & Peter place a lot of emphasis on these aspects, and i do as well because it is the most important yet least understood aspect. We do cover these a lot in PFS generally, but often lean more towards physical attributes as much as cerebral. PFS emphasises combat ready through combat training PFS as we stand is *roughly* a blend of Kali, Chun, muay Thai, BJJ, Savate and Kina Mutai....that is a gross oversimplification, but covers the general idea. BCS That said as a PFS Full Instructor it is allowed if not expected that I can alter, vary or change ANYTHING I do for my personal development or that of my students. It is rare an organisation allows such freedom. Because of the way we pressure test any ineffective changes would be whittled out damn quickly and any good changes would be absorbed. As a slightly specialised example I am a huge scarf hold advocate on the ground. Most PFS guys don't like using it because it is not a great BJJ position, and that is the genesis of our groundwork. I have a slightly different background in JJJ and CACC so I have that freedom to include what I know. i also use the "double hip" a lot too! Vu is a very supportive instructor, and you can call him about anything. Same goes for Singh and Tom. My time with Geoff and Peter was the saem, and I found them very open to questions and enquiries. Geoff helped me a lot at one point and I was always grateful for it and still am. As a PFS guy my advice will always be "Do PFS"....but I will also recommend any good stuff when I am asked, and Geoff and Pete are at the top of the chain. I hope that all makes a modicum of sense - feel free to ask anything else!
Hi Hannibal, Thanks for your prompt reply! It's interesting that you mention the biggest difference between the apporaches as being in the psychological area. Geoff Thompson achieved the recognition that he has (in my opinion) in large part because he was one of the only instructors out there realistically dealing with the effects of fear. At least in the early 90s. I have read both Vunak's books, and everything he does seems to be focused on street preparedness. So it has always surprised me that Vunak hasn't delved into aspects such as fear control, the "Fence," pre-emptive striking ect that much (going by what I have seen, and admitting that I have never trained PFS!!). I don't intend that as a criticism by the way. Vunak's approach seems more geared toward a match fight scenario, would that be accurate? If so, why the emphasis on match fighting rather than, say, the pre emption for which UK instructors like Geoff are well known for? Again, I am not trying to make any negative comparisons. It' s apparent that the UK guys, and Vunak, all have self protection as their ultimate goal. However, it seems that, for all the similarities you listed, the paradigms between (for eg) Geoff Thompson and Vunak seem to be very different.
The same can be said for guys like Tony Blauer. We had one of his certified instructors (low level it has to be said) come for a bit of training at our school, all very good at the pre-fight and the three seconds after it had all kicked off, but very little we felt after that. Certainly no better (worse perhaps) at sparring than any other student and no signs that his particular style of training prepares him for when his technique of control goes wrong. I do like Blauer's stuff but Geoff Thompson and Vunak certainly go that bit further in regard to RBSD.
Vu is also quick to point out that HAOV and streetfights can vary tremendously according to cultural norms and expectations. As a VERY general example, UK street attacks are often "ambush" or "mob rush" instances (Geoff himself provides a lot of evidence of this in his books). The US mentality leans more towards the "square go" (i.e the one on one). Rickson famously once said "American egos make fighting them easy because you all think you are John Wayne...Brazilians are like little rats and we will just sneak up behind you" We do pre-empt a lot in PFS, but it is called "intercepting" as we are in a JKD mindset Vu does cover psychology - although admittedly it is through exposure to violence that we prepare for it. Having used both approaches I tend to slide to Vu's approach, but that could be just because it sits with my personal paradigm. Knowing about the psychology of fighting is one thing; it is another to actualise it when you have a crazy training partner drilling uppercuts into your ribs and thigh kicking you into next week - that is why the psych aspects are discussed less, because theya re actualised more. As I have a big gob i talk a lot about them too!
Amongst others - Clive Whitworth - http://www.ukfighting.net/ (Northampton) Dan Wait - http://www.fightingnet.com/ (Lincoln) Keith Gilliland - http://www.martialartsunlimited.net/ (Warwickshire) Special mention should also go to Michael Wright, who is no longer with PFS but teaches the same stuff - http://www.adaptivemartialconcepts.co.uk/ (Glasgow)
I've thought for years that the fence, the pre-emptive strike and the SPEAR gel very well. Put your fence up, pre-empt the first attack if you can, SPEAR the guy if you can't. From there on you're gonna have to use what ever fighting skills you have.
Hi Hannibal, a few points from what you wrote above. I find it interesting that you have Pre-emptives in PFS, but they are termed "interceptions." Of course, I am familiar with the term "interception," but I imagined that it was something executed AFTER the opponent had already made an initial move. This leads me to think that PFS is MORE practical than I at first believed. Not that I thought it was impractical, but I have always been sceptical about the idea of waiting to "intercept" an attack that is already underway. I personally like the incoporation of BJJ, and the idea of being complete y being competent at all ranges of combat.Regarding the ground game, here are a couple fairly well known self protection/defence instructors out there who pretty much refuse to have anything to do with grappling, and I find this mentality out dated to say the least. You just can't get away with it in this day and age, as more and more people are getting clued up to basic grappling thanks to the growing prominence of UFC/NHB ect. It's not like it was twenty years ago. From all accounts, Vunak is highly experienced, so why isn't there any dialogue training such as we see in the UK based "RBSD" instructors? I take your point about doing less of teh scenario type stuff with dialogue as you perpare for violence by incoporating violence in training to a great degree by sparring. But it would seem to me, that a lack of dialogue type training a la Geoff Thompson/Peter Consterdine is an important gap i the arsenal. I mentioned this before, but the lack of verbal/scenario work does surprise me somewhat. I think it's fascninating that Vunak acknowledges that different cultures fight differently. It may seem an obvious point on one level, but it is evidence of an open and practical mindset. Finally, getting people to actually relate any Vunak fight stories is like pulling teeth! Do you have any interesting ones you can relate, without breaking any confidences of course.
Timing with regards to and attack will either be before, during or after - and interception can fit into either of the first two. Pre-emption is an interception par excellence! Absolutely right! Vu was one of the very first to train with the Gracies and actually can take most of the credit for introducing BJJ into the JKD curriculum. Anyone who refuses to address the ground game is an idiot You do not have to become a grappler, but you must avail yourself of what it means to be down there. Geoff, Pete and every other "right minded" person thinks that way - as do I. Significantly I am not a big one for submissions outside of chokes - they leave you with "let go or break it" as options. However, i practice them so i can defend them PFS is not so much syllabus driven as it is experience driven. We are free to do pretty much what we like. There are several LEO's including myself that give a lot of input on things like verbal scenarios, but ultimately that is something that the individual themself must develop. Believe it or not it is a skill that not everyone can do - if you ARE interested try getting a copy of "Verbal Judo" Vu is the MAN! Only to students! Vu is open about some of his escapades, but we like to keep them a little "In house" so to speak. I can tell you one great tale though... Vu was in a biker bar and all of a sudden poop went down. Using all of his skill, knowledge and unparalleled ability in combat situations Vu ran and hid in the end cubicle in the gents, crouched on the pan and waited for over an hour. The police came and went, Vu waited stepped out over the blood, bottles, teeth and went out the bar Now THAT is self-protection!
Mate, I like you a lot. Oh, and my Instructor was one of the first in the U.K to have a BB in BJJ. As Hannibal has said, using submissions in the street is okay, but you do have to be prepared to just break it. You really have to find that mindset.
LOL at the Vunak story. That's a classic Speaking of which, I can appreciate you want to keep things 'in house" Hannibal. Of course I respect that. But would you say Vunak has had A LOT of "live" experience? I mean along the lines of guys like Geoff Thompson ect? I don't mean to pry, I'm just VERY interested in Vunak's approach, and his fight experiences.
Vunak and Geoff would be neck and neck in terms of experience...but I would give the edge to Vu because Geoff learned his lessons doing an honest trade; Vu learned his lessons by having a more "colorful" life The awesome thing about Vu is that he is just as quick to tell you the stories about where he got his ass beat. He is a great story teller!
Bloody hell, I didn't imagine Vunak was THAT experienced! I've read most of Geoff Thompson's stuff, and he's gone on record of claiming at least 300 fights. If he and Vunak are neck and neck, Vunak must have been in hundreds of altercations. Chadderz, I think it's cool that you are with Rick Young. I have never met him, but some say he's the best MAist in the UK at the moment. Seems to be a nice guy from all accounts as well.
Geoff's record of 300 is legit IMO - but not every encounter a bouncer has is a full on fight any more than every arrest I have is a full on fight. Geoff is another guy who is brutally honest and if anything has understated a lot of his encounters However, Vu has had some scrapes that literally made my eyes bug out when he told them to me. I keep bugging him to write them into a bio!
