Question about Asian martial arts

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by windtalker, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    During the past couple of years I have been making an effort to learn something about other martial art styles. Before then I strictly practiced Jeet Kune Do and didn't really pay attention to what students of Hung Gar, Tae Kwon Do, etc. did or why. After having read a few books, a lot of threads here on MAP, and went to classes (observer capacity) there's a nagging question I just have to ask. Why do so few martial art styles use a boxing type stance? Most often it seems the students keep thier chin up and hands at or just above waist level! These styles are supposed to be old and time tested right? BTW This isn't an effort to start a big debate, just my desire to understand what is going on there.
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Much of my take on it is that by and large over the years much of the martial arts became form over function. Everyone talks about bringing it... yet so few do. Even with gloved up there aren't many who can stand toe to toe with a boxer... boxers have to put it on the line and that is that. It's part and parcel with the game. Most styles that do realize certain things of value... above and beyond form and esoteric styling... tucking the chin down is one of them... a good guard is another. I see all these vids of guys saying they'd do this and that... frankly aside from guys who can shoot... I don't see many of them making it past the basic straight right thrown with some intent.

    No one is going to like to hear that. But I call 'em as I see 'em.

    I've trained with guys who thought 'Eagle claws' during rolling would suss it for them... or the knee stomp during stand up would 'suss it for them' or whatever fantastic, white bearded, cloistered mountain grotto technique would suss it for them... and 99% of the time the flat out didn't have the footwork to keep up, the guard to keep me out or the grit to go the distance. BS is miles deep in most MA's because most of them never have to put it on the line. Flat out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Because they are not boxing. The same reason boxing does not defend takedowns very well
     
  4. ShangChi

    ShangChi KRAV MAGA!

    I'd like to add that during my very classical/trad training (a Hung style), I got the vibe that in the ancient dim and distant past (or at least a coupla hundred years ago), even the 'bringing it' was very formal and structured. They might have gone at it hammer and tongs, full-contact stylee, but within boundaries that supported the floweriness of the respective traditional styles, allowing it to blossom, even.
     
  5. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    What about the numerous references to Kung-Fu as being Chinese Boxing? After years of training, sparring and getting into fights it just seems feasable that somebody would have developed a hands-up, chin down position or had a reason not to? Even if they are not boxing in the western sense it's still punching and kicking.
     
  6. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    When you mention boundaries does that suggest a certain respect for distance being maintained and maybe no grappling rules? Because I'm really curious how these styles managed to survive any length of time if the students learned to fight within boundaries then got into fights with people who knew none.
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The modern boxing guard is almost a development of the gloved era - look at Sullivan et al and you would see a guard not a million miles away from some Karateka stances
     
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Oddly enough I've been tossing this one around most of this week as I'm working on a project about ancient China... and while pouring over different texts on military strategy/history in the different Ancient dynasties... I started to wonder why not a single one of them... pretty much anywhere... refers to any martial art other than wrestling. Other than that anything they have on is troop formations/tactics and weapons... but nothing related to the codified forms that we know from the modern era... given that much of what I'm going over relates to 1500-2000 BC the focus is almost entirely on campaign weapons (spears/archery/swords), siege assaults/technology and horseback warfare. Perhaps we see the slightest hint of some of that in the modern CMA's... but I wonder how much if any can really be tied back to a particular dynasty in ancient China. My guess is... at the moment... not much. Not that they wouldn't love to be able to do it... but even in the most famous text on warfare attributed to the Chinese (Sun Tszu's Art of War) not a single time anywhere in it does he mention anything by name that would resemble what we see today in CMA's.

    This could be another thread entirely... but it does pertain to the topic at hand primarily because the CMA's make up such a large part of the martial arts picture. At the moment the way I see it... for most of China's history having a flowery, twirling about martial style really didn't impress anyone much because they were all about steam rolling with columns of soldiers and conscripts backed up by cross bows and artillery and all the stuff that makes martial arts in the sense we know them today... a moot point.
     
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    That's a good point.
     
  10. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    Isn't that kind of like saying that we are learning techniques based on the use of gloves and not what a person should be doing if they are in a situation without them?
     
  11. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    While doing research into Native American fighting skills, I found several references to weapons and wrestling, yet little was mentioned about striking or boxing. This might be a leap based on insufficent data, my impression leans toward Native Americans favoring a weapon first strategy and only relying on hand to hand skills when getting tangled up with the opponent. Then it became a matter of wrestling loose to continue using a club or knife to finish the matter. Sound feasable?
     
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Yeah I would say given the resources that it's highly feasible.
     
  13. Teflon

    Teflon Valued Member

    Muay Thai doesn't use the boxing guard due to leg kicks. If you stand in a boxing stance you cannot effectively block a kick to the back of your lead leg. There are probably more reasons, but this I believe is the main one (for MT at least)
     
  14. WalkingThePath

    WalkingThePath www.gplus.to/jayboyle

    Whle I would agree that some traditional MA's use wildly ridiculous 'fighting' stances, I would argue that most contact styles DO use a boxing stance, (or something strikingly similar) as their base...
    Take a look at the basic kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA stances and you generally find guards similar to those seen on championship boxers.
    Also, lets not forget that the 'by the book' boxing stance is adapted by individual fighters all the time - I can think of two or three boxers who had almost no guard at all for their fights (naseem hamed being the most ridiculously flamboyant).
    A guard is a very individual thing, developed through trial & error and repetitive practice, and you'll probably find wide variations from person to person - for example, I like to have my hands up, chin down and a close guard, but I've trained with friends who have loose guards, and friends who have no guard... doesn't mean they can't slip, bob weave and generally 'fight'.
     
  15. WalkingThePath

    WalkingThePath www.gplus.to/jayboyle

    In fact - the more I think about it, the less I see a problem... Many, if not all, of the great boxers used a loose or adapted boxing style. I'm really struggling to think of a champion boxer who fought with the traditional 'hands up by head, chin down, tight guard' approach.
    Even Ali, the greatest himself, had a VERY loose, fluid guard... and kept his hands in the region of the waist/mid-section almost exclusively...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaHGY7BEog"]Muhammad Ali: The Greatest of all Time - YouTube[/ame]


    Maybe the problem I'm having is not understanding what you mean by 'Boxing stance'... If so, apologies...
     
  16. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    This is not surpsrising. Wrestling is the foundation of using hand weapons, hence military application. The German manuscript HS 3227a says "alles fechten kommt von ringen" (All fencing/fighting comes from wrestling). Note that by wrestling they mean grappling in general, from standing clinch to ground fighting. The tactile sensitivitly learned in wrestling translates very well to "the bind" where two weapons are in contact. It also develops core strength, endurance, etc.

    We spend half of our drilling time doing some kind of grappling at the Calgary AES... that's how important it is for what we do as historical fencers.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  17. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    What blocking strategy for leg kicks are you describing here? Seems to me the muay thai strategy for leg kicks is either blocking with your own leg (which a boxing guard wouldn't preclude) or simply getting your lead leg out of the way (which a boxing guard wouldn't preclude).
     
  18. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Joe Frazier :cool:

    EDIT: Tyson, if you consider him a great.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  19. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    This topic gets pretty interesting.

    Wrestling seems to form a big part of Military MA across the world.
    In Chinese texts theres reference to wrestling, same with Mongolian history, even in Indian texts about Mughals and Sikhs they both trained heavily in wrestling.
    Heck most Japanese Ju Jitsu originate from military personnel/families and much of that is grappling and weapons with striking being part of the stunning technique. It explains why Kano was able to gather such a wide source of techniques.
    Ancient Greece was big on wrestling as were Romans. From what i can find and the texts i've read it's why freestyle wrestling has the ruleset it has today, it's a derivative of pankration where you wanted to throw your opponent onto his back and attack his face and stomach with strikes.
    Freestyle wrestling rules teaches the positioning and principles perfectly hence why wrestling was the basis of ancient Greek combat.

    As for Sullivan, accounts mention that his bouts often included throws and wrestling with striking on the ground, i'm unsure of how they were scored.
    GnP may have been removed for boxing as it seems brutal and the gloves make wrestling difficult.
    If Sullivan was wrestling his stance would be similar to a wrestling stance (Check out Vale Tudo which is pretty close to Sullivan accounts)

    I was reading an article on the stance used in MMA and usually its wider than a MT stance but more spread than a wrestling stance. It also largely depends on the background of the fighter.
    What interests me is where CMA got its stances from and why wrestling isn't a big part of CMA?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  20. Teflon

    Teflon Valued Member

    Moving the leg doesn't work so well from the more side-on boxing stance, unless the kick is low enough to lift the leg over it. Note that I said the back of your lead leg is the vulnerable spot. To move the lead leg towards the kick won't work very well unless you are super-quick and able to step that leg back out of the way, which then leaves you in a square-on stance and not a boxing stance. Moving it in the opposite direction can much easier avoid the kick, but is likely to expose your back to the opponent.

    When it comes to blocking with the leg (checking), this is done with the shin as it's hard enough to withstand the impact and will cause pain to the kicker also, but from a boxing stance your lead leg is facing the wrong way and your rear leg is out of range + position.

    The MT stance uses both legs forwards facing, standing almost square on. This gives you the option to lift a leg and slightly rotate outwards, using the shin to block low kicks. The compromise is less of a default angle for the hips + shoulders to rotate from, although this can be compensated imo by throwing from side-to-side.
     

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