Qigong Psychotic Reaction

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by jkzorya, Oct 14, 2007.

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  1. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I recently read a definition of Qigong Psychotic Reaction on this page http://rjg42.tripod.com/culturebound_syndromes.htm which seems to suggest that from a Western Psychiatric perpective, ALL so-called "qi experiences" could be seen as symptoms of Qigong Psychotic Reaction, or at least could be seen as such if those symptoms then cultivated a belief in the existence of "qi", which would be seen as intrinsically delusional. Any opinions?

     
  2. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Deep breathing causes light headedness.... you know, that's about it.


    Joanna, what do you think about Zhan Zhuang?
     
  3. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I think it is useful for strengthening your body, working on your alignments and working on reducing unnecessary tension in isolated muscle groups by doing just that - thinking "ouch, my deltoids are tense in my right shoulder - I must consciouly try to relax those muscles and make the shoulder sit in a more relaxed manner." I am wary of any use of special mental imagery though. I think that any kind of imaginary "energetic" visualisation of the kind that many people use is delusional and to be very much avoided.
     
  4. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    That's very interesting. I think ZZ is misunderstood - the kind of ZZ you're talking about is what is known as "dead standing". It's not about just standing to fatigue muscles - that's a very common misconception.

    After a certain point of standing - say five minutes - a physiological reaction occurs where if you squeeze or press out gently there's a kind of "muscle freeze" which makes it appear as though something is resisting you. That's the feeling you're after - firstin your fore-arms, then eventually, all over your body - the whole body strength trainign is based on that.

    When you get that,t hen you try to move it gently - shi li - or the original taiji exercises were based on that. Slow movement, maintaining that feeling - it's tricky and requires massive relaxation. Why it makes people more powerful, I have no idea, but the Yaos say it's just an isometric exercise taken to an advanced level, training areas of your pyhsical structure that otherwise couldn't be trained.

    The visualisation is misunderstood - it's nothing to do with delusion - when you get "the feeling" it's very odd - because a part of it is in the mind because obviously nothing is resisting you - so with visualisation, you can make the feeling much stronger. It's a sports science technique, nothing more.

    I'm amazed you don't use this kind of stuff - it's pretty high level sports science and really helps people improve - especially in taiji.
     
  5. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    My problem with the source is, that every link (almost) links you to some obscure website. They even link you to skeptic websites, but states that:

    "According to the DSM-IV, "Although presentations conforming to the major DSM-IV categories can be found throughout the world, the particular symptoms, course, and social response are very often influenced by local cultural factors. In contrast, culture-bound syndromes are generally limited to specific societies or culture area and are localized, folk, diagnostic categories that frame coherent meanings for certain repetitive, patterned, and troubling sets of experiences and observations."

    So while they start out using the DSM-IV as a guide to this, they then proceed to try to substantiate their own beliefs from sources of other skeptics. Hardly an impartial article. I would have to check my own DSM-IV and see if any of this is in there, I don't think it was in the older edition, but it could have changed it has been a few years :D

    My other problem is this:
    Over a third of 129 respondents described sensory problems (32%), mood symptoms (90%) and behavioral problems (37%). Other symptoms listed were memory problems (24%), attention difficulties (26%), thought disorders (18%) and disordered consciousness (2%).

    1) "Over a third of 129" So we will be generous and say 50 people
    a) And of that 32% exp. sensory problems, so about 12-15 people.
    b) mood symptoms (90%) and behavioral problems (37%), so about 45 had mood symptoms (not stated what those are) and about 15-20 had behavioral problems (does not state what those are).

    I don't want to go on, but you can see where this goes, the numbers are not all that impressive and the group studied was relatively small. It does not state what kind of Qigong was practiced, and all of the symptoms it lists are symptoms that EVERYONE experiences in day to day life! (with the exception of the giant 2% of disordered consciousness) I mean who has not had "mood symptoms" daily or "behavioral problems" or "attention difficulties" it's called life! How can you possibly measure that when these can be fairly subjective?

    The last issue I have is you go to the non-working link it provides for the studies. It also makes no comment on what happened to the other 2/3 of the people that practiced, not a very good source imo.
     
  6. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    My opinion is that this is your same old rhetoric, jkz, being posted with the sole intention of stirring up an arguement. Please, change the record.
     
  7. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    This is a martial arts forum and all anyone talks about in the IMA and Tai Chi sections are qi and qigong instead of combat techniques. I stopped posting here for a while and when I looked back it was the same old energetic drivel - but even worse as I had not been around. When your records change mine will too, but I suspect we might need a whole new Juke Box.
     
  8. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Ah, so you're back to try and save our souls again? Grand :rolleyes:
     
  9. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, there has to be some recognition that people have differeing view points from all parties. It doesn't bother me if people believe in qi - I'm far more interested, in martial arts terms, just in level and how we improve level.

    Unfortunately, beliefs do engender conflict because conflict with opposing views is one of the means people use to define their own beliefs.

    Personally, if someone's quan is good, I don't care how they phrase the theology of their training - I can always decode it in to my own jargon anyway.

    My mission, if I could achieve it, would be to connect with people and see how we can get past our differences and help each other improve. That will involve questioning stuff - no doubt. Like, I've yet to even see anyone use taiji convincingly - ever. Although I like many of the moves in taiji, and I can see their rationale, I have yet to see any demonstration, teacher, fight, class, where taiji has, or can be demonstrated to be convincingly effective against a serious opponent.

    When you think about that, that's far more important than qi or not to qi.
     
  10. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    I have just posted something similar but it is appropriate to reiterate it here.

    Qigong work can result in the release of 'stored' emotions and memories which is very distressing. In extreme circumstances, the flooding of the concious mind of things we chose to 'lock away' can be overwhelming, resulting in mental health issues.

    Always do qigong with a qualified teacher who should explain the above info and be there to help students work through their emotional baggage.

    There is a very real chance of psychological damage.

    Done with the correct guidance, it is liberating to slowly drop personal baggage and clear the emotional backlog.

    My twopence worth!

    Carys.
     
  11. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi Fire-quan - it doesn't say on your profile where you are based, but if you are in the UK anywhere near Yorkshire (or are prepared to travel) you are welcome to come and check out our classes and see what you think.
     
  12. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Well, thank you for the invitation. I am quite near there, actually, and - yeah -sounds good.

    What does worry me, though, is the reason for doing that - I mean, I never criticse people in person, ever anyway - unless they were what I'd call total, criminal frauds - so even if I wasn't impressed, I'd never say, either then or in public.

    But if you were interested in an inter-art kind of get together, to share and learn from one another - that'd be cool with me, and you could show me your stuff, and I could show what I mean. Maybe we'd all learn something?
     
  13. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Hey Joanna, hope you are well!

    The symptoms mentioned in your quote sound just like the effects of prolonged stress. In my experience if you tell people that they are gonna get super powers, or even superior health through practicing qi gong and not mention that you can over do it, specifically emphasizing relaxation of the mind. The result is peoples greedy nature takes over and they exhaust themselves reaching for something that they really want. Of course this is not the same for all people and all types of practices, but I would say its more prevalent in the higher risk/faster results practices and money orientated teachers.

    In my opinion, this is why study of Taoism is important to those practicing Qi Gong, as without having some concept of the principles of balance and "wuwei", one can really over do it, especially with the Western beliefs of "no pain no gain" and generally fats results and goal orientated mentality.

    Also, just wanted to add the visualizations, mentioned by Fire-Quan earlier on, in relation to Zhang Zhuang practices are quite straight forward and are there to help relax the muscles. Quite literally, things like: "pretend your hand is resting on a table" or "imagine your in a serene garden", as a result, you musculature relaxes and the buoyant resistance response is stimulated. These visualizations are quite different, in my experience, to the sort of visualizations which are used in Qi Gong with the purpose of turning your awareness to the inside of your body.
     
  14. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Thanks for your replies everyone. Fire-quan, feel free to PM me when you want to get together.
     
  15. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well - I must say it is trememndously refreshing to meet someone who is completey open and welcoming - which demonstrates a tremendous confidence in your art. I look forwards to coming up there. I will PM you.
     
  16. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Agreed.
     
  17. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    If you're upset that "energetic" threads outnumber martial threads, then why are you starting new "energetic" threads? If you're hoping people will talk more about the martial side then maybe you should set an example by actually discussing the martial aspect rather than spending all your time trying to discredit the "energetic" side of the arts. Ironically, you're just starting more discussions about qi and qigong with your attacks against it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2007
  18. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    There's a good reason for that, Onyomi. My experiences of being on MAP (plus a few other forums and blogs) have made discrediting the so-called "energetic" side of martial arts my primary motive for contributing. I've mostly given up thinking I'll get much else out of it because by and large people are "energy" obsessed.
     
  19. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    It doesn't work any better than it would if I made it my mission to convince you to believe in qigong. Stop trying to carry out a one-woman internet crusade and contribute something constructive. (Going on like a broken record about how a practice many of us on the board have found to be beneficial through personal experience is NOT constructive, imo).
     
  20. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I'm just trying to free your mind from unnecessary and damaging superstition, Onyomi. You might be glad of my interfering one day.

    No, I'll never stop - martial arts would be much better off without archaic, mystical and occult trappings. Anyway, I am not completely alone in my "crusade." People such as Ed Parker and Bob Orlando have done similar things for their preferred arts. And for the record, broken as it is, I happen to think it is very constructive - indeed, I think it is the only way forwards.
     
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