Qi Questions

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Libraquan, Mar 29, 2007.

  1. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi Taoquan,
    It is an interesting thing. People generally assume I've had scant experience of qi because I dissociate myself from it. I have actually done a lot of qigong and even buqi (qi healing) and Reiki (I'm allegedly "Master" level at that for what it's worth [not a lot]).

    I've had vortices of light and deep physical sensations, some pretty explosive. That much I do not deny, but then I've also had magical, meditative, shamanic and religious experiences too.

    What has changed has been my attitude to what qi sensations are, and what they mean, and whether or not they are good. There was a danger for a while that they would lure me away from the true meaning of martial arts and into a mystical prison. I've quoted Yang Banhou more times than I can remember on the subject of how the Yangs "encouraged the (Manchu) royal families to become absorbed in mysticism so they would endlessly pursue a mental achievement."

    I know my attitude is not popular, but it is my sincere belief. It is not an uneducated opinion - perhaps you can trust me on this as my explanations, or recounting of experiences often provoke abuse from other forum members. The level of suspiciousness around here really means you have to stay on your guard. Just being open and honest has done me no favours in the past.

    Rest assured, I cannot easily be put away in the "freaked out the first time she experienced something she didn't understand" box. I have actively turned my back on qi after much involvement with it. I came to martial arts with the sole goal of martial accomplishment, got sidetracked by qi and mysticism for a while and have now returned to my initial position a little older and a little wiser. My value system does not acknowledge an "each to their own" position - I think qi is a bad idea per se. For me there are no "but what about....?"s because I am yet to see any evidence of qi being a positive influence on anyone's life and the behaviour of many qi believers around here has only compounded my view.
     
  2. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Thanks Onyomi - that is reassuring. :)

    I wonder why it stopped when I started doing it in a manner that I have drilled in a lot more though (with reeling silk).
     
  3. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Could you describe these sensations in more detail? Was it just the sense of your arms moving on their own as if on a track or was it sensations within your arms like tingling, heat, electricity, throbbing, blood rushing, etc.?
     
  4. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    I will make this short by refering to other people post Onyomi like your discription of chi feelling. It is light an fleeting, an you can get drunk thinking about it to much so just lead it.
    Sandimus i have alway thought that are hands an feet are like speakers they sense in a pushhand way viberation an pressure an sound to give use direction of movement. It is light an fleeting, you lead it as well.

    To the arguement i guess a well i don't know why but it is funny right/crazy now, would you two get a room jkzoryia and Taiji Butterfly. Geeze! :D
     
  5. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    My qi is in your mangled remains. It was a fragment of shattered bone that poked me in the eye! Ha ha!

    Bow down before me I am the Supreme master! I have many belts! I have more dans than a Dan Dare convention! Bwaa haa haa haa!

    Back to the question. Sod the qi, where was my Yi, my Shen. How did I not notice you coming for me?

    To take a beleiving stand point my qi would now be in my eye trying to help my body heal. My foot would be in your ****/head/groin/foot spa......

    Sorry I don't think I can give a serious answer after all. Ho hum! Congratulations on your high speed move to the dreadded ignore list!
     
  6. Jadesdaddy

    Jadesdaddy New Member

    I only have one belt Mr Vampyre, it's snazzy little black leather number that helps to hold my pants up :D

    As for my high speed move to the dreaded ignore list thank you. I welcome the ignore list it means that I may not have to endure ridicule from a bully. Best to start out as we mean to go on :)
     
  7. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Onyomi asked:
    The experience I mentioned was more of an arms moving on their own and feeling as if they were repelling each other as when trying to bring together the like poles of two magnets.

    I have also had the warm tingling sensations and feelings of fullness but in my experience, focussing on them makes them increase and ignoring them makes them go away. As I am unaware of any practical use for them, I'd rather ignore them and get on with my training - refining physical movement without getting sidetracked. Such sensations only matter if you choose for them to. As many people have pointed out that you can indeed have qi free Taijiquan AND that it is just different and in no way less good, I'll stick to my qi-free version. My first teacher's position was "if you believe in qi, qi flows anyway whenever you start to move ... you don't have to do anything special to make it happen ... you don't even have to believe in it ... it is not relevant to martial training."
     
  8. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    JK,
    This is a great account and really makes a truly fantastic point. While I have also heard and seen things done with Qi that I cannot explain with simple body mechanics or even within the tradition realm of physics.
    I agree, to an extent Qi is very dangerous and should not be focused on solely in practice. My teachers have never had us focus more on Qi than the physical application, they try to increase both. In fact, as you know (since you mentioned earlier you studied Taoism) Most taoists ignore these "special powers" also seeing them as pitfalls.
    In fact, looking through the classics last night I found these:

    The method of Achieving Perfect Clarity in Tai Chi:
    Using energy is not correct;
    Not using strength is not correct;
    To be soft but hard is correct.

    Leaning away is not correct;
    Butting in is not correct;
    Not leaning away and not butting in is correct.

    Sticking is not correct;
    Not sticking is not correct;
    Being neither over-anxious nor separating is correct.

    Floating is not correct;
    Heaviness is not correct;
    Lightness, sensitivity, relaxation and sinking are correct.

    Bravery is not correct;
    Timidity is not correct;
    Strong courage and keen perception are correct.

    Striking is not correct;
    Not striking people is not correct;
    Causing the opponent to mentally surrender is correct.


    Also:

    The attention of your whole being should be on the spirit and not the Qi. If it is on the Qi, there will be blocks. Those whose attention is on the Qi have no power; those whose attention is no on the Qi achieve essential hardness.

    When, I personally feel these sensations I do not focus on them either, I too have found it actually takes me out of the form or practice. I merely let them go and continue on. My teacher used to say "sometimes you will feel things you can't explain. It is VERY important you don't focus on them and try to reproduce the feeling. You will never make progress that way."

    Though, through my studies of medicine and healing, I do use Qi (within in the concept of Chinese Medicine) to heal. I too have also studied various forms of meditation and shamanism. I personally do not combine most meditations and Tai Chi Chuan. When I practice Tai Chi Chuan, that is what I practice. When I do meditations or practice TCM I do that. I have found that if I try to bring in Tai Chi to Meditation (the visualization meditations) it actually decreases the effectiveness of Tai Chi. Same goes with Medicine and Tai Chi, it seems if I try to combine them, my ability to focus in Medicine, becomes scattered. So I just try to focus on what I am doing at the time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  9. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    There is also the idea within Chinese Medicine that Qi is an energetic form and is considered Yang, while blood is a liquid (and tangible) form of Yin energy. The two are inseparable, Qi is the commander of the blood and Blood is the Mother of Qi, is our common term used to show how inseparable they are. So with your teacher's quote this is very true, if one moves, both moves, if one is stagnant both are. So by focusing too much on Qi (as per the classic quotes above) You would stagnate blood, thus decreasing the over all physiology of the body, decreasing your Martial as well as (yeah I will mention it :D ) Health.
     
  10. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    This type of "qi" that flows all over the place if you just practice the form and just believe in it is not real qi. It's an illusion. It isn't just same vague "sense of fullness." It's very strong physical sensations. I kind of wonder if your qigong ever really got anywhere or if you were just deluding yourself? Real qigong doesn't require you to believe in it to work and it isn't a vague type of feeling where, "okay, I do this exercise thinking about qi and I feel it, I do it not thinking about qi and I don't." The qi is physical movements within your body. Though intention does affect it, it's not such an ephemeral, vague thing. How many Yoga teachers would say the same thing about prana--that is, it will move if you believe in it, not if you don't? None, because it's silly. For a long time in your basic Yoga training you can't really feel the movement of the prana much. Then, as you get better and better at it it becomes more and more apparent. You can't will yourself into feeling the prana in a Yoga pose, nor can you will it away once you do (other than by tensing up). Anyway, "a feeling of fullness" is not the goal of qigong. You should be able to actually feel the movement of the meridians back and forth. The most important thing is motion back and forth, not "fullness" or "tingling."


    It is not irrelevant to martial training because it can help martial training.

    CMA training can be broadly divided into the categories of shu (technique) and gong (physical training). Shu is anything about the actual techniques of the style, including its body mechanics, applications, sensitivity, sparring experience, footwork, etc. Gong is anything designed to make the style more powerful, like weight lifting (yes, there are many traditional Chinese weight lifting exercises), hitting bags, holding stances and zhanzhuang, conditioning, iron palm-type stuff, etc. Qigong is "gong," not "shu." Therefore, like the other types of gong, it is just something to make your shu more fast, powerful, lively, effective, etc. but is not inherently part of the style's "moves." Can you do boxing with only practicing the punches in the air and on a partner, but never doing bag work, cardio, weight training, etc.? Sure, you can still do Boxing, it will probably just be kind of weak. Same with qigong and Taiji.

    Qigong is a type of "gong" (physical training) which is beneficial to Taiji and which Taiji was designed to take advantage of. How then, is it irrelevant? Also, keep in mind that Taiji is based on Longfist. It could even be described as a type of Longfist. Don't most styles of Longfist do fine without qigong, you might ask? Surprisingly, the answer is no, not only because some Longfist practitioners do do qigong, but also because an important part of Longfist training is Tantui, a type of stretched-out position holding in which the breath is supposed to be coordinated... i.e. a basic type of qigong. If Longfist considers Tantui indispensible, how can you totally do away with Taiji's qigong and still expect it to be as effective?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  11. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    sounds like the qi-gong mentioned above is just a form of physical exercise. No need for mysticism.

    Holding postures, doing set movements. So is it possible that some of these exercises are mis-named/categorised?

    Should they have an alternative name that separates them from qi-gong.

    Nei-gong and Wai-gong perhaps, where Wai-gong are more about physical muscular effort (punching, press-ups, etc) and Nei-gong are about other types of exercise (relaxation, meditation, holding postures, etc).

    Both have benefits in your training and both may well affect your qi, but we don't have to believe in it to happen.

    Train. Follow Principle. Let qi happen. Wu wei.

    Too many people view qi as a shortcut to becoming a master/better. There are no short-cuts!
     
  12. fatb0y

    fatb0y Valued Member


    It's all on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/
     
  13. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Oh god! I can't take that pseudo-scientific docu-tainment crap! And they always pick a Wushu guy to represent CMA, which is so not right.
     
  14. FONB

    FONB Banned Banned

    Yea, agree onyomi. The guy is good at wushu but wushu does not even begin to represent all of the TCM or CMA, and definatly not what i would say trains how to hit hard at all. They put a little bitty person Wushu guy up against a 225 lb guy an guess who could develop more power per his size an speed.
     
  15. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Thanks for those quotes Taoquan :) Are they Douglas Wile's renderings from "T'ai Chi Touchstones" ?

    I like this bit:
    To me, that kind of knocks it on the head for qigong. But what do others make of it?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well I could say "define qigong" but that's what this whole thread is trying to do. I am not convinced and to be honest I don't really care about what the majority of people think, say or do. If you can't describe what real qigong entails on the internet, there's little hope for me, I'm afraid. I largely found supplementary qigong to be a waste of time. Sure I stand, sure I do reeling silk, sure I do single and linked forms sometimes, but I can see no point in doing some movements or whatever that look a bit like martial techniques but not quite because they've been disarmed or simplified. I warm up, I practice fighting techniques, I stretch down. Solo training means practicing with imaginary opponents or else taking the time to really study my knee alignments (for example) inch by inch, or to check my reeling silk rotation is constant and evenly paced. No qi anywhere in that.

    What more can I say? I don't believe in qi so I can't do qigong. No one seems to be able to agree on what it is, what it involves or how to do it anyway. I was taught a load of stuff, but as I saw it all as physical and saw my body as mine to do with as I wish, I only kept and / or adapted anything with a clear martial purpose - that is anything which improves co-ordination and movement quality or otherwise develops strength or flexibility. Some of the qigong I've done would just get me into bad physical habits if I persisted with it, so it has been made to fit or thrown out of my training regimen. I don't believe my training or fighting ability has suffered.

    I've taken the same approach with the rest of my training. When I came across a movement in a praying mantis weapon form that involved (as I was taught it) moving solely from the wrist, I stopped doing mantis because it might interfere with my whole-body connected mechanics. Allegedly my whole-body mechanics were wrong so the style had to go. When I did some training in SE Asian arts, my body mechanics were considered fine. I guess not everything is compatible with everything else. We have to exercise discernment. I've never stopped doing something because I found it too difficult - quite the reverse - I've invariably made it my focus for some time. That's what Kung Fu is all about, isn't it?

    Anyway I'm happy and cannot be convinced to do qigong so I'll step aside for others to contribute (hopefully). I think this thread has some real potential and would perhaps have even more so if the various differing qigong perspectives debated the issue between themselves. At present the thread is again becoming a bit too polarised due to my lack of belief in qi. Bye for now :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  16. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Taiji and Mantis are very much compatible.
     
  17. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Mantis and Tai Chi are very comparable, however, Southern style Mantis is a bit more similar to Tai Chi Chuan. You also do have to remember though that Mantis is a bit more Kung fu and "external" focused, also not to mention you would have to empty your cup and start with the basics again, if this is waist training in a different way then you would have to learn to do that.

    JK,
    To answer your question, yes, that was from Wile's "Touchstones" book. I enjoy that book as a good read every now and again.
    Oh btw, I did offer some links to articles containing Qigong research and Development, but it seems people missed it. so here is a copy of "What is Qigong" By Ken Cohen followed by his website.

    WHAT IS QIGONG?
    By Kenneth S. Cohen

    We live in a field of qi, "vital breath" or "life energy." Yet, like a fish in water or a bird in flight, we are unaware of the medium that supports us. Qigong means "working with the qi." It is the ancient Chinese art and science of becoming aware of this life energy and learning how to control its flow through a precise choreography of posture, movement, respiratory technique, and meditation. Like biofeedback, qigong teaches psychophysiological self-regulation; the student becomes aware of bodily functions conventionally considered involuntary-- blood pressure, respiratory rate, even the flow of blood and nutrients to internal organs-- and learns to restore a healthier balance. However, unlike biofeedback, no technical devices are needed. Qigong is one of the most cost-effective self-healing methods in the world. The only investment needed is time, a half-hour to an hour each day; the dividends of better health, increased vitality, and peaceful alertness accrue daily and are cumulative.

    Qigong is like a great river fed by four major tributaries: shamanism, spirituality, medicine, and martial arts:

    1. Shamanism:
    An ancient text, The Spring and Autumn Annals, states that in mythic times a great flood covered much of China. Stagnant waters produced widespread disease. The legendary shaman-emperor Yu cleared the land and diverted the waters into rivers by dancing a bear dance and invoking the mystical power of the Big Dipper Constellation. As the waters subsided, people reasoned that movement and exercise can similarly cause the internal rivers to flow more smoothly, clearing the meridians of obstructions to health. Qigong-like exercises are found on ancient rock art panels throughout China. Chinese shamans used these exercises and meditations to commune with nature and natural forces and to increase their powers of healing and divination.

    2. Spirituality (Taoism and Buddhism):
    A. Taoism. Qigong philosophy and techniques are mentioned in the classic of Taoist philosophy, the Dao De Jing, written in the fourth century B.C. "By concentrating the qi and making your body supple, can you become like a child?" Qigong was the ideal way for Taoists to realize their goal of wuji, an empty, alert, boundless state of consciousness, and xing ming shuang xiu, "spirit and body cultivated in balance." Taoists and qigong practitioners were both looking for a harmony of yin and yang: inside and outside, earthly and spiritual, stillness and activity. The majority of works on qigong are still found among the approximately 1,100 texts in the Taoist Canon.
    B. Buddhism. The Buddhist emphasis on tranquillity, awareness, and diligent practice are part of qigong. Several styles of qigong were developed by Buddhists who needed an exercise and healing system to complement their lengthy seated meditations.

    3. Medicine:
    Chinese medicine includes acupuncture, herbalism, massage, diet, and qigong. Qigong is the preventive and self-healing aspect of Chinese medicine and was used in the past, as today, to teach patients how to improve their own health. The major early text on qigong is the Dao-yin Tu "Dao-yin Illustrations" (168 B.C.). Dao-yin is an ancient word for qigong. This work contains illustrations of forty-four qigong postures prescribed by ancient Chinese doctors to cure specific ailments. The patriarch of Chinese medicine, Hua Tuo (second century A.D.) was one of the great early qigong masters. His "Five Animal Frolics" imitate the movements of the Crane, Bear, Monkey, Deer, and Tiger and are still practiced today. Hua Tuo said that just as a door hinge will not rust if it is used, so the body will attain health by gently moving and exercising all of the limbs.

    4. Martial Arts:
    Qigong practice can improve performance in the martial arts or any other sport. Chinese martial artists designed or helped to improve many qigong techniques as they looked for ways to increase speed, stamina, and power, improve balance, flexibility, and coordination, and condition the body against injury. Qigong was a major influence on the development of western gymnastics, thanks to Jesuit P. M. Cibot's 1779 illustrated French translation of Taoist qigong texts: Notice du Cong-fou [Kung-fu] des Bonzes Tao-see [Taoist priests]. Cibot's descriptions inspired Per Henrik Ling (1776-1839) to create the first school of modern gymnastics in Sweden.

    You can see why it is hard to find a simple definition for such a comprehensive system of mental and physical development. Qigong is a spiritual practice with roots in shamanism and Taoism. It is a powerful method of self-healing and a warm-up for any sport. It includes both exercise and meditation.

    Qigong is practiced by more than 80 million Chinese people and probably by tens of thousands in the United States and Europe. Qigong has been rigorously tested in controlled scientific experiments and clinical trials and is often used as an adjunct to conventional allopathic medical treatment. Hypertensive patients who take medication and practice qigong fare better than controls who only take the medication. Similarly, there is solid evidence that qigong can improve immune function and mental health, and prevent disabilities that come with age. Qigong acts like Vitamin C, increasing the activity of an enzyme that helps to deactivate free radicals, highly reactive chemicals that promote tissue degeneration and loss of memory. In 1995 the Journal of the American Medical Association published evidence that Taiji Quan, a form of qigong, is effective at preventing loss of balance and falling injuries among the elderly. Researchers at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine confirm that Taiji Quan works like aerobics at reducing high blood pressure.

    There are thousands of styles of qigong. Some are designed for general health and well-being and may be practiced every day for a lifetime. Others are therapeutic and targeted to cure specific problems. Qigong techniques are suitable for men and women, young and old, athletes and sedentary, and for the disabled. All styles are based on similar principles: relaxed, rooted posture; straight, supple spine; diaphragmatic respiration-- the abdomen expanding on inhalation, retracting on exhalation; fluid movements without excess effort; and tranquil awareness.

    Quality is more important than quantity. Students are advised to learn one or two qigong styles that are enjoyable and effective. Finding a qigong lao-shi, qigong teacher, is not an easy task. Although qigong is popular, the training is not standardized-- I do not believe that it can or should be-- and both quality and qualifications can vary immensely from teacher to teacher. There are unfortunately too many con-artists, charlatans, and magicians among our ranks, trying to impress the public with stunts of allegedly supernatural qi-power such as pushing objects without touching them. Students should apply the same standards of professional excellence to qigong teachers that they would apply to teachers of any other subject. A qigong lao-shi should be humble and compassionate and open to questioning and dialogue. He or she has not arrived at a final goal, but is rather on a never-ending quest for expanded potential and deeper understanding.

    Benefits of Self-Healing Qigong

    Experimental evidence suggests the following healing effects of qigong exercises and meditations.

    Cardiovascular
    lower resting heart rate; normalized EKG, blood pressure, and cholesterol levels

    Respiratory
    slower respiratory rate, improves gaseous exchange, significant benefits for asthma & bronchitis

    Immune System
    better targeting of antigens, significant anti-cancer effect

    Circulation
    improves microcirculation, prevents vascular spasms, very helpful for angina, migraine, and Reynaud's Syndrome (cold hands & feet)

    Brain
    improves cerebral blood flow, less incidence of stroke; reduction in frequency and intensity of seizure disorders; slow, high amplitude brainwaves suggest relaxed and integrated state of consciousness

    Musculoskeletal
    improves posture, balance, strength, stamina, flexibility

    Chronic Pain
    significant pain reduction from all causes, including injury, surgery, arthritis, fibromyalgia

    Mental Health
    decreases: stress response, Type A, anxiety, obsessive-compulsive, depression. Improves memory and interpersonal sensitivity

    Longevity
    improves: blood pressure, vital capacity, cholesterol and hormone levels, kidney function, mental acuity, vision and hearing, skin elasticity, bone density, immune function, digestion, balance, flexibility, strength, libido. Destroys free radicals (major cause of tissue degeneration) by stimulating activity of superoxide dismutase
    www.qigonghealing.com

    Ken Cohen is one of the most recognized Qigong Masters in the world and has taught in numerous other countries. I have attended one of his seminars and to be honest, I was not a fan, I like his views and explanations, however, he did not seem such a personable person. Just my opinion.
     
  18. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Some research being done with Qigong from same site:

    Qigong Research

    Many thousands of qigong experiments have been performed in China, and an increasing number of western laboratories are also exploring qigong. Experiments may be broadly divided into two categories:

    A. Measuring the effects of self-healing exercises on the course of an illness. Naturally these experiments must be performed with human subjects. Often qigong is administered as a complement to conventional allopathic (western medical) treatment. For example, in the first two experiments cited below qigong improves the health or makes the difference between life and death among patients being conventionally treated for hypertension or cancer.

    B. Measuring the effects of External Qi Healing on disease. External Qi Healing experiments may be performed in vitro (that is, in a test tube or cell culture): the qigong master projects qi and attempts to promote the activity of healthy cells or destroy unhealthy ones. Or the experiments may be performed in vivo, in living subjects. Here, as in self-healing qigong, External Qi Healing may be used as an adjunctive therapy or by itself. In vivo research may also include animal experiments, in which the healer attempts to project qi to heal a laboratory animal. These experiments are particularly impressive because they rule out placebo effect, the power of expectant trust. We assume that if a mouse's physiology is influenced by the qigong master, it is because the technique really works, not because the mouse believes in the power and authority of the Master!


    Examples of Self-Healing Qigong Research

    Effects of Qigong on Preventing Stroke and Alleviating Multiple Cerebro-Cardiovascular Risk Factors
    A Follow-up Report on 242 Hypertensive Cases for 30 years

    Shanghai Institute of Hypertension
    120 in Control Group, 122 in QG Group, randomly divided.
    Both groups took standard anti-hypertensive drugs.

    Results of 30 Year Follow-up

    Control Group Qigong Group
    Deaths 47.76% 25.41%
    Stroke 40.83% 20.49%
    Death from Stroke 32.50% 15.57%


    Qigong for Cancer
    Drugs with Qigong vs. Drugs Alone

    Kuangan Men Hospital, Beijing

    • 127 patients divided into 2 groups

    • various advanced malignancies

    • standard chemotherapy administered to both groups

    • QG group 2 hrs. practice/day, 3 months.

    Measured Effect Qigong Group Control Group
    Normalized Liver Function 20.62% 6.67%
    Normalized Erythrocyte Sedimentation 23.71% 10%
    Phagocytosis Rate increased 12.31% decreased 7.87%
    Improved Appetite 63% 10%




    Examples of External Qi Healing Research

    The Effects of Emitted Qi on Tumors in Mice

    Laboratory of Experimental Oncology
    University Hospital of Gent, Belgium

    • Fibrosarcoma cells implanted in 54 mice, randomly divided.

    • Qigong Group, treated by qigong master 30 min/day for 38 days. Control Group untreated.

    • Both groups fed same standard diet & tap water.

    Measured Result Control Group Qigong Group
    Average Tumor Volume/ day 396.42 mm 259.29 mm
    Avg. Survival 30.4 days 35.4 days (P<.002)




    The Effect of Emitted Qi on Experimental Animals
    Infected by Pneumocystis Carinii

    Guangzhou University of Medical Sciences

    • 80 adult female Wistar rats infected by P. carinii randomly divided into 3 groups

    • Group A and B treated by 2 Qigong Masters every other day in 15 min. sessions, 7 times total. Group C (Control) untreated.

    • All groups received standard diet & therapy (cortisone acetate & tetracycline).



    Control Group QG Groups
    Infected 92.3 % A 65.4% B 50%

    A:C P<.01
    B:C P<.01
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  19. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    No, Northern Praying Mantis is closer to Taiji than Southern Praying Mantis, especially 7*, which has a lot of Longfist elements. Taiji is a type of Longfist. Moreover, Praying Mantis can be just as "internal" as Taiji, depending on who's teaching it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  20. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    Regarding the Qi Gong Research

    The problem I have when I see these papers is what does the control group do?

    The qi-gong group practice qi-gong. The do a set of low impact exercises that work on the muscles, the breath, the 'mind'.

    Do the control group just vegetate on a sofa? or are they allowed to go and do light, non-qi-gong?

    Are we comparing apples with apples or apples with elephants?

    How much can we place at the hands of our ability to make placebos work wonders?

    There was a series on the BBC a few months back looking at the science behind accupunture, faith healing, herbalism and a couple of others. The faith healing was incredible. People went into hospital and were put under anes(drugged I can't spell that word at this time in the morning!) and then the surgeon pretended to work on their chronic knee trouble. No incisions were made. The result? They were cured because they believed they were cured. Later they were told that they had been hoodwinked, but it did not cause the pain to come back.
     

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