Before you go TJB, I want to spar with you. I'll travel. Then we'll see. Seriously - I won't endure this much bullying from anyone. I'd like to fight bare-knuckle please, so I'm at my best. We can film it and put it on Youtube
Hi Bethopia, Nevermind, it'll all come out in the wash Couldn't agree more. It's been done. An outfit that crash-tests vehicles wired up a group of martial artists and measured everthing, it was pretty interesting. No mention of Qi on that documentary. I'll get back to you on that....
I have a programme called "Fight Science" on DVD Bethtopia - I'll lend it to you if you like. I think the Western Boxer and Taekwondo guys came out ahead on punching power and the Ninjutsu guy was really interesting to watch as his cat-like balance was superb.
I hadn't thought about what I'd said in that context, lol how strange. Oh well, try again What I meant is that people tend to be very cautious about openly challenging and questioning people's beliefs. I sometimes feel that arguing that Qi doesn't exist, or that God doesn't exist is very much like pointing out to someone that their baby is in fact hideously ugly. It's just quite rude and hostile and unless their beliefs are somehow making them behave in a way that is damaging to other people it's impossible to justify anyway. So personally I'd like Qi to become a technical matter: Are Qi-centric martial artists more powerful and skilled than science-centric martial artists? (Because really if the training method delivers results then who cares whether or not Qi exists?) If it becomes a matter of faith then proper debate shuts down and you just end up with factions with entrenched positioned trying to shout each other down (what?? on the internet??? never!!!!) I don't think we're quite there yet, there's still some wiggle room and we're mostly being quite civil [OFF-TOPIC]Oh, I'm a big "Nineteen Eighty Four" fan actually (being an unredeemable anti-authoritarian) One of the things that I often say about the current British government is that the only lesson they've learned from Orwell is how to stay in power forever. [/OFF-TOPIC] -- Bethtopia
That's a surprise about the TKD punches, I have to say. Sure, I'll borrow that off you, sounds good -- Bethtopia
In Japan if you ask someone how are they feeling they may say den ki des. My spirit is up or my spirit is down simply meaning how they feel at that moment. No mysterious connotation to ki.In karate they say remember to ki me meaning focus their power and intent. Again nothing mystical. I have been training in traditional martial arts for more than forty years mainly ai ki do.Execute the technique "boldly" or with ki. Again no mystical conotations. As to the constant fighting between internal and external arts. Any art that does not include BOTH must be missing something. Once when complimented on showing good spirit it was explained to me as chikara (strong ki) AGAIN no mystical connotations. I simply cannot see what the problem is. Below a kokyu nage technique done without (apparent) body movement. Anyone watching may think there is some kind of esoteric ki factor. In fact it is simply strong posture timing distancing and unbalancing. How easy it would be to present it to beginners as more than it really is. regards koyo
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Where did that form come from? It's pretty funny. I've been reading this thread, but the 'interaction' between jkz and tjb is just too pointless to read. I see nothing wrong with jkz's approach to tjq. Keep it physical and try to get damn good at that. Correct form and adherance to principles will get results. In my class and my teachers school no one is told to believe in qi. You have to make that decision for yourself. You feel for physical connections in the form, and if you get warmth or tingling? Well you make up your own mind as to what that is. A student once went up to Ben Lo (first student of Zheng Man Qing) and said that his qi was so strong it used to push his wife out of the bed at night. Ben's response.... "Not only do you know nothing, you're crazy as well!"
I couldn't agree more! And that's why I've given up and put her on my 'ignore' list. I only want to have a laugh and talk about IMA, Taiji and neigong I just keep getting sidetracked tho. Ho hum Again 100% agree. My own methods are physically rooted and I rarely ever talk about qi. There is no pressure to 'believe' anything, everything is physical/structural in my classes. BUT what I find objectionable is any politicization of TJQ (for any reason, by anybody, anywhere) and 'campaigning' against people who do TJQ in a way that is different to us or we don't 'agree' with. That should be challenged imho. There is a common perception of me round here that is way off beam imo There is nothing much I can do to change that, god knows I try lol (I actually think it's probably my name that causes it lol ...that and I just can't resist the smilies lol ) I've only kept my name this long, because it's so interesting the way people react to it, who knows, maybe it's time for a change...?
Hi jk, maybe it's not really about musculature if that's what you mean by physical. But these feelings predominantly having more to do with blood movement. Blood follows yi? Still increased physical awareness. But there is still somewhat of a grey area perhaps. eg. are our thoughts and awareness physical, Our yi ? I would say that you can certainly say yes and be right. You could also say there is no dichotomy between physical matter and energy.. See the work of Einstein.(for example) As for training I think everyone brings the mind into play on some level. But perhaps it is not entirely out of place to say traditionally/ historically arts like taiji and bagua have included more philosophy than Plato and buddies put together. But using concentration of the mind to certain things can make improvements to things I'm sure most of us can agree. But in MA these can't replace physical demands only supplement and refine really. Fine tune and amplify if you like. I liked the analogy of the speaker cables earlier.. Though having said that the matter of sung also counts for a lot. This also has a lot to do with using our mind to acheive the optimum of that state. Maintaining it under various circumstances also. What all that has to do with a smack in the chops I don't know.. Anyway my basic premise regards 'qi' as it relates to a human being and martial arts is that it is ' the power of the mind'. From this you can extrapulate fighting spirit or whatever. Anyway for Libraquan here is part of an article i posted on another thread that went into a debate about qi and I like it. Again nothing particularly to do with the martial arts. Unless you want to make it so.. From thread http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60105&page=2&pp=15
That would mean I'm electricity but I know what you mean and I agree with your sentiment saying my spirits are up this weather does not mean you believe in 'spirits' it means you use a common expression to say your feeling good. I suspect the use of ki, qi and chi is often used in a similiar way i.e. as a coverall term for particular sensations. This doesn't help with clarity nor does it prove the existence of 'chi' but in the same way that the meaning of 'my spirits are up' is not to discuss what exactly a spirit is but to convey a feeling of happiness I can see that people might find it useful to use the word chi. Of course there are those using it in an esoteric invisible energy system way involving healing others and whatnot who are obviously using chi in a different way from what Im discussing above but well... just because some define chi in a silly way (IMO) does not mean the term is useless. Just some random thoughts from reading this thread .
Well said Cloudhandz, I agree, that even if Qi does exist, it does not matter much. I personally don't feel that one practitioner that practices only Qi is better than a practitioner that practices only physically. I think this sounds simply absurd, even if Qi does exist you still have to put forth all the physical effort necessary to train and not do some kind of lame version of a form saying you are "doing it with Qi". Bottom line, no matter the belief, you must always physically train!
Well I don't know if the sensations are neurological signals from your blood flow or from your muscles & fascia or both... I don't even know if it matters, but maybe you'll agree that awareness of your muscles is probably more important for martial arts as it is muscles you'll be moving with and muscle state that needs to be correct to optimise movement, isn't it? I agree, but if matter is just manifest energy, where does any additional energy come from (other than food and air), or can we agree that there is no energy floating around which can be absorbed into what is already a form of manifest energy (a human being)? How much can and should we use the yi to influence how our energy manifests itself I wonder? I think the best thing is probably to try to commit our energies towards useful and moral actions. I don't agree with this - not any more - I may have done once, when Daoism was fresh to me, but I think also out of some ignorance and bias against European culture. I'm still really only starting to re-discover how many great things there are in the philosophical and religious traditions of Europe.
For me personally, I feel the most Qi, when I practice form work. I am sure we have all experienced that one "perfect" moment when all seems to flowing perfectly, your mind on the form, your muscles contracting perfectly, your breathing coordinated, maybe on a deeper physiological level, blood moving perfectly, nerves, neurons, cells all firing in harmony. Maybe when you have that one single moment that happens it is not Qi, but a perfect Harmonization, so you get this otherworldly feeling? Maybe it is the human body being perfectly in sync, which is something for the most part this day and age few would experience???
For me the connection came when doing a Cabales Serrada Escrima short stick partner drill. Suddenly there was a click of connectedness that had a domino effect that trickled through everything else I did over the next fortnight. I just marked that day as the time when simultaneous movement had become connected movement. (from everything moving in the right order, to everything being driven by the muscle group beneath it, through my body from the ground.) I'd had more "zoned out" (or zoned in, as in - introspective) experiences doing Bagua and even had some visual disturbances and physical sensations, but I just snapped myself out of it. I know many martial artists won't understand this perspective, my seeing meditative states as negative, but I can at least say with certainty that for me introspection is a bad thing. None of this is about me. The best I can hope for is to be fighting on the most benevolent side in a time of war.
Well indeed...... but i was being a bit flippety flippant about Plato and buddies. I'm very tempted to shoot you a winkie roll eye, Has someone been messing with your SOH today or lately maybe .. ahem, less said the better perhaps Difference being they are not entirely as well linked to western/ europeon martial arts like the ones we're chatting about. Well to the best of my knowledge anyway. I'm not sure. i don't think about my muscles much per se. When i'm moving for example. I certainly feel them when I'm training for power, strength etc. I like my awareness to be wholistic so it encompasses mind and body as one. As far as me moving, i want to move as a whole so in that regard I fool myself into believing i only have one muscle (and it's connected to everything else).. ps it's very, very big.. also if there is an opponent involved, whether application or sparring then awareness must also extend to encompess their movement and intention as well as my own. Sounds pretty reasonable I suppose.. Regards
Hi cloudhandz, Well, just because a mechanical (clockwork!) clock is made of lots of little parts doesn't mean we can't simply tell the time from it. But remove a single cog and the whole stops working, just as grounded strength requires every muscle in the chain to work to the correct degree at the correct time. No one can deny this is what is happening - anatomy is far from mere speculation. Surely someone who wants to really get to know how they work and refine their martial abilities can only benefit from an understanding of anatomical structures and relationships. Our entire skeletal and muscular system does indeed make one whole moving object. You might find articles on biotensegrity interesting. http://www.biotensegrity.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=4&Itemid=29 I just think we need to know what is going on in our bodies as accurately as possible and we can't deny that it is made up of lots of little parts and tiny individual muscles, whether we think of it as a whole or as "a synergy between balanced tension and compression components."
Stop allowing yourself to be sidetracked. Focus! TJB-san! See your poll, but it wouldn't matter what you called yourself. It's how you, or anyone for that matter, reply and deal with posts that affect how people view you. It's all we have to go on. If you allow an argument to keep going you are feeding the argument. It takes two to tango. Chill, let it slide past and kick them in the bottom. Running away may or may not be necessary afterward.
Hi everyone, as you can see I'm new to this forum and I am also very new to taiji, only just starting out on my journey infact. I've been reading this thread with some interest and there are lots and lots of aspects that I would like to comment on, but maybe for now just a few will suffice. Firstly I took up taiji because if I do happen to get into a fight I want it ended quickly, so I need an effective fighting system. The one thing that I don't want is to learn how to do a pretty dance in my local park. If thats what others want from taiji thats fine good luck to 'em, I don't have any objection to that, but what I do object to is that they take the name of taiji/tai chi. Taiji is a MARTIAL ART it isn't a dance! It was designed for fighting, what is there to not understand about that? I have waited 20 years to find a teacher that understands and teaches taiji as a fighting art, after my interest was first fired up by an article about Dan Docherty in Combat magazine. Now that I have started to learn taiji I'm sick to death of people mistaking what I am learning for some hippy tree hugging dance! (no offence meant to any hippies) Since I have become a taiji student I have seen others come to watch classes and the look of dissapointment and shock on their faces when they realise they have walked into a "martial arts class" can be quite comical. So what has all this to do with Qi? Well for my own part if I had walked into a martial arts class and heard the teacher talking (what I consider) to be nonsense about some internal force that can be harnessed and used to generate power and acomplish great feats of strength etc, the only thing that the instructor would have seen of me would have been the back of my head as I walked out of the class again. Sure I've seen the circus tricks that are attributed to Qi, most of which I asume are nothing more than clever body mechanics and other such tricks. IMHO I see these tricks as serving only two purposes 1. to entice people to train with unspoken (maybe spoken?) promises of learning mystical secrets that will turn you into some kind of super human. 2. Once you are caught in the trap to keep you putting money in the pockets of unscrupulous teachers who will still be making promises 10 years later, telling you that in a few more years you too will be ready to learn the "secrets" Finally I couldn't help but notice this: I'm sorry to say TJB that the common perception of you is more likely to be caused by your attitude rather than your name. Take a little while to think about it................. I've only just joined the forum and already I have fallen into the "common perception" of you by just reading this thread. No offence meant but maybe it's an attitude modification that you need rather than a name change. Any of us can change our names, but does that change who we are or the way that we are percieved? Finally a question for the belivers in Qi: where's your Qi if I poke you in the eye? Although it sounds like a flippent and maybe stupid question it's a serious one and I am interested to see if anyone can give a serious answer.
It is a stupid question because qi doesn't make you invincible, it isn't magic and I don't think anyone in this thread was describing their qigong in such terms (although qigong can increase your resistance to taking hits in many other parts of the body). Qigong is just another way of training your body. You might as well say to a power-lifting bodybuilder "where're your muscles if I poke you in the eye, huh?" Does that question mean weight training is useless?
