Qi Questions

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Libraquan, Mar 29, 2007.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi shadowh

    I have found that the mind can play with a concept and at times completely misunderstand or worse distort it while the body does not. So I go with the thought that sincere training shall devlop ki and there are exercises specific to this but best to simply train and be carefull not to be sidetracked.

    regards koyo
     
  2. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Hi Bethopia,

    I have to agree with you that psychosomatic "stuff" is just as real as anything else....but that doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of Qi.
    Perhaps Qi is like faith - you either believe or you don't?

    Yes, I got your point.

    Thanks for your reply,
    LQ

    --
    Bethtopia[/QUOTE]
     
  3. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Hi Onyomi,

    Maybe you can answer this for me. What is it that's "special" about the Qigong movements, compared to "taijiquan" movements? Why would our bodies and minds respond so very differently, according to what movements are performed? I simply cannot don't understand this. Maybe you can help?


    I have experienced the feelings you've mentioned above, but not the feeling of anything moving around my body. Could I be feeling the beginnings of my qi flow?

    But maybe some people are getting it, but don't know it, because they're only just in the beginning stages?

    This is a tricky area, the area of the psychosomatic. As far as I can see, it can't be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply,
    LQ
     
  4. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Hi Vampyre rat,

    Excuse my Tourette's, but I recently saw the "Borat"...the bonus materials...
    Borat "What is this?"
    "Qi"
    Borat "What is this?"
    "Qi"
    Borat "What is this?"
    "That's Qi too"
    Borat "What is this?"
    "Qi"
    Borat "This...what is this?"
    "Qi"
    Borat "What is this?"
    "That's Qi. This is all Qi."
    Borat "And this, what is this...potato?"
    "No, that's Qi"
    Borat "What is this?"
    "Qi"
    Borat "What is this?"
    "Qi"
    Borat "What is this?"
    "Qi"
    Borat "And this...what is this...rice?"
    "No, that's Qi too."
    ....sorry, couldn't resist. :)

     
  5. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Hi jkzorya,

    That's what's mystifying me, too.

    Thanks for your input, and for repeating one of my questions.
    LQ
     
  6. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I was talking about (internal) movement in (external) stillness. I can believe Aikido and possible some other JMA may have certain qigong elements, but I've never met or spoken with a JMAist who sounded to me like he was practicing qigong as opposed to just "concentration," "calm" "meditation," etc.
     
  7. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Hi again Onyomi,

    And this must surely be a problem for beginners. Finding a good taiji teacher is hard enough! How on earth could anyone know which of the abundant Qigong exercises are actually worth paying for? (That was a non-aggressive rhetorical question.)

    But that presents a problem; because that means that anyone, anyone at all, can convince themselves (and others) that what they're doing is "right"!If one thinks hard enough for long enough, or the need to believe is great enough, then the body will make it true (psychosomatically). How is one to discriminate between those who "have it", and those who've merely convinced themselves that they "have it"?

    Thanks,
    LQ
     
  8. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    You could indeed be beginning to feel your qi. I'm not saying nobody gets it, but the majority of people who decry qi as spiritul mumbo-jumbo don't get it. One key I find to keeping a grounded view of qi is to look at it from the TCM perspective, rather than the movie, novel and magic trick perspectives.

    To get a sense of something physically moving takes a while. Just keep in mind that it's always a natural feeling... I mean, it feels kind of weird like "whoah, I've never felt like my whole body was breathing before..." but it's not like you get zapped by a lightning bolt and suddenly you have qi either. It's all about "opening." The more your muscles, joints, sinews, etc. relax and open, the more powerful and unobstructed the feelings become.

    Taiji movements are different from qigong movements in a number of ways. For one thing, Taiji movements are primarily martial movements. They all have martial applications and don't deviate from certain martial principles, like "concave the chest," "sink the elbows," etc. This limits it as compared to qigong. What's more, qigong exercises generally have to be repeated many times to get a feel for them. You don't do one big form of various qigong movements all in a row like you do with a Taiji form, though if you took out single moves from the Taiji form and did them over and over this could probably have benefits on both the qi and martial fronts. Also, qigong is a lot more than just movements. It's many different things, such as: different ways to breath, patting yourself, hitting your back against a wall, massaging yourself, soaking your feet in hot water, exhaling with different mouth positions, standing and seated meditation, stretched-out position-holding ala Yoga, etc. All these things can't possibly be contained in just a martial form. Once you've learned some qigong you can carry it over into the martial form, rotating the dantian, pulling and "shoot" the meridians as you move, but you are unlikely to learn these skills through the form alone. You have to do exercises specifically designed to teach you how to cultivate the dantian, how to open the belt meridian so it can rotate, how to pull and "shoot" the meridians, etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2007
  9. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

     
  10. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Perhaps some of you could describe some exercises that you consider to be representative of "good qigong." What is the exercise said to cultivate and how is it said to achieve this? How does the practitioner chart their progress - what signs indicate correct or incorrect practice?

    Also, maybe you could give some historical background behind the exercise - who invented it and when?
     
  11. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    The "Heaven, Earth and Man" set I learnt from Alex Kozma is excellent imo/e. It cultivates structure, calmness, health, stability and qi:
    Man = standing connected to dantien. This is the starting, returning and finishing aspect of the set.
    Earth = channelling and grounding downwards. To empty excess/bad energies
    Heaven = receiving energy into the body, gathering it at dantien
    There is a thorough closing sequence to gather and centre energy - this should always be present in good neigong.
    Progress is how long you can stand and remain relaxed and integrated, sensitivity to energy and improvement of structure and awareness. Improved health (physical and mental) is a pretty good yardstick also.
    Incorrect practise is using the arms in a disconnected way to make the gestures, heavy breathing/force and not connecting internally to the flow of qi imo
    Correct practise is connecting physically, mentally and energetically to the process. Movements originate in the spine, the process is one of wholeness and becoming, not one of 'doing'.
    Don't know its history for sure, Alex learnt it in Taiwan, but I think its roots may be in esoteric/tibetan buddhism. Qigong/neigong as a practice is depicted pictorially in records dating back approx 4000 years as far as I know. (This also places it before surgery was outlawed in China, and thence before the distortions cited by that silly article about qi being the 'air' in blood vessels etc btw)
     
  12. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Forgive me TJB, but to me, these are just streams of words. Please could you tell me how to do it starting at the beginning, via the middle, to the end. What do I need to do? Maybe you could imagine you are presenting it on a new radio series for total beginners.

    "Stand with your feet parallel, knees slightly bent, foot arches raised"
    or whatever...

    Examples of clarification required would be how do I "stand connected to dantien?"; how do I "receive energy into the body?"; how would I "use my arms in a disconnected way?" or "connect physically, mentally and energetically to the process?"

    Also, please could you explain the meaning of "the process is one of wholeness and becoming, not one of 'doing'."

    Thanks,
    Joanna
     
  13. Bethtopia

    Bethtopia New Member

    Is that what I said? Hmm.. not sure that's what I meant! Certainly illness that has a physiological cause and illness with a psychosomatic cause can often be equally devastating, as I know from personal experience. And when it comes to treatment of pain and depression, placebo can be just as effective as pharmaceuticals. Our perception of reality is not objective - it's subjective, and it's utterly at the mercy of what we want to see, hear or feel.

    The fact that placebos can have amazing effects on our perception of pain, wellness and confidence is, to me, proof of just how much capacity we have to shape our own realities.

    You can never underestimate the power of wanting to believe in something (say the benefits of a medicine to help with a condition you have) to take a sledge hammer to your reason.

    I don't rule it out at all. At the moment I don't see that the evidence is there, although I think that we have the technology to get a much better idea one way or the other.

    For example, it should be possible to build computer models that can accurately predict the amount of force a martial artist can deliver to a target by using motion capture data and simulations of their anatomies.

    It's not a simple or cheap thing to do, but the technology is there. Assuming that it consistently and accurately "guesses" the force of a given strike for non-Qi martial artists, you could then test the Qi artists - if the force they deliver is significantly higher than the computer model predicts then this would suggest there was an additional factor not currently being taken into account in the model. It wouldn't prove it was "Qi" but it would prove it was worth investigating further.

    On the other hand, if the computer model was able to predict the force of the Qi artist's punches then this would strongly suggest that Qi isn't a factor at all.

    Of course, you'd also have a whole bunch of data about the relative merits of different punching styles for different body types which would be pretty handy I'd say!

    Then again, I can't see anyone doing a study like this.. sounds very expensive and technically challenging and it wouldn't prove anything either way :p

    How do you make 2 and 2 equal 5? Just tell people you *believe* 2 and 2 make 5. That way, instead of correcting you, they'll simply nod and leave you to it.

    --
    Bethtopia
     
  14. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I would love to give a few examples of Qigong, however I have not been given permission by my teacher to do so. I am not at a level to give that out so I apologize.
    Some I have practiced such as the 8 Brocades actually somewhat focuses on different stretching and isometric contraction of muscles with included visualizations (i.e. some of what TJB stated)

    As for historical data check out Hua Tuo, he developed one of the more famous Qigongs known as the 5 animal frolics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Tuo

    Also Primordial Qigong is good (hunyuan Qigong),:
    http://www.nqa.org/2006conference/cohenweeklong.html
    www.wudangtao.com

    These are all Qigong forms that date back 1,000's of years. Most of the "new" qigong that is out there is far too new agey and really doesn't work. Some of you may have heard of Mantak Chia and his stuff is okay, but does not build a solid foundation imo. Hope some of these sources help.
     
  15. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I will admit, that Qi has yet to be able to be quantifiably measured in a term such as force. It is hard to explain, but I have been hit by a "external" style Karatedo master. It hurt like the dickens and bruised me for days. When I was hit with someone that used Qi a few times, it felt like a contact strike, however it made my internal core shake. Like I was not struck on the surface but more to the bone. To my knowledge there is not a machine that could measure such a strike yet.
    Though the studies they are now conducting in China regarding Qi healing are fascinating. They are currently doing studies where they will have a patient lie on a bed with a unspecified ailment. Then they have a Fake Qigong practitioner come in a do all the usual flamboyant waving hands, chanting etc...and measure the patient's heart rate, beta and theta waves, use EEG's to measure brain patterns and so on. Even though the patient does not know that this Qigong practitioner is fake and they put on the best show, all of these measurements show little change.
    However, when they have a true Qigong master (certified through TCM colleges in China) come in and do a Qi healing on the patient, they are able to physically show the patient's Heart rate decrease, BP drops, and their brain waves almost go into a dream like state, while the patient remains fully conscious. They then move the Qigong master behind a wall (5' or so away) so the patient cannot see them do anything and they measure the same effects on the same patient.
    Some Qigong masters have also been hooked up to EEG's to measure their brain waves when they meditate and it has been shown to reach even deeper beta waves (i think that is the right wavelength) than when a person sleeps. This has never been seen before as well.
    I am pretty tired now, so I will do what I can to find articles relating to this and post it here, otherwise you can check out one Medical Qigong Doctor that practiced in China by the name of Jerry Alan Johnson.
    Heres one to look over till then:
    http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/qigong/qigong2.htm
    Have a good night all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  16. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Taoquan - you illustrate my above point perfectly when you say:
    None of that applies to the set I am talking about (especially not visualisation!) soz :cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  17. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    That "qi testing" is silly. The qi doesn't pass back and forth across the air between the palms to any significant degree and the degree to which you can create that illusion doesn't indicate anything...other than the depths of your own illusion. One hand doesn't sense how much qi the other is getting, they each feel their own qi.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  18. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi TJB,
    We hold those 3 postures too, although I think of it as strengthening training - strengthening the entire musculature (including connective tissues) by endurance-holding the positions.

    We sink and relax and try to sink deeper as we exhale. The focus is generally on postural integrity rather than duration, but we do push ourselves to stand longer too. Bagua has something similar in its "eight mother palms" (usual name for them). The upper body posture remains static while walking around the circle. Typically, there are postures to develop the arms held extended towards the centre of the circle; to the front and back; both high; both low; one of each etc. When you get good at it, you can add hand-held weights or heavy weapons, which not only develops your ability to finely control weapons, but also further helps you to develop your ability to control another human body.

    I think that this endurance process can be a useful illustration of the Kung Fu principle. Students learn that they are able to achieve far more than they ever thought possible. I discovered this at my first Chen style weekend seminar. Hour after hour of form with regular 15 minute sessions stood in a posture (such as Single Whip) while the teacher went around checking everyone. I thought I wouldn't get past 5 minutes in such a deep posture, but then I got to 10, then 15... and again, and again... I thought I'd never get past the first hour, or the second, yet I somehow endured 2 days of it. (I struggled to walk for a day and a half afterwards, but when my muscles had recovered, there sure was a new found spring in my step!)

    Anyway, sincere thanks for your contribution. My perspective is offered to provide an alternative viewpoint, not as any kind of argument.

    Regards,
    Joanna
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  19. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    I tend to agree now.
    In the year that I have been using this set, I have moved away from the 'testing' aspect - but that is the way I was taught it, so that'sthe way I wrote the piece.
    Again, it's also the wording. It is not the intention to 'pass' qi between the palms, only to feel the resistance between the two palms. I usually show that aspect to beginners then discourage them from testing often, rather encouraging them to feel their energy inside. 'Feelings of qi' when focussed on become a distraction, they usually indicate disharmony rather than enegy anyway ime. So, point taken :cool:
    Again, that's your interpretation based on reading my words, so you see why I cannot accurately teach you it over the internet. This set is definitely a 'softer' form of qigong aimed at qi development, rather than a strengthening one (but strengthening happens over time anyway). It was taught to us as a 'health' set, rather than a martial one. I used to use three-circles stance and other 'sets', but found them disatisfactory for my needs and my student's needs.
    I now also use a rotation sequence called "9 circles" for building structural strength and movement later in training, this has more 'martial' implications, so the two complement each other nicely.

    I'll do my commenting in your quote for the rest of it to emphasise similarities and differences. I'm not arguing, just illusrating the different ways we teach and train.
    Just a couple more points:
    I don't personally visualise in neigong work at all, neither do I emphasise breathing work - despite this being the way my first teacher taught me. I find both those things take the attention away from the object of the exercise unless you have already mastered it. I don't focus on qi either now. Connecting directly with the body to allow qi to develop is the focus for me. As soon as you 'try' or focus on the qi you are losing it anyway lol
    I think I missed this point out earlier:
    I think I mentioned above, "applying will and not force"? To try and explain, it is connecting as one feeling inside and outside, directing action with the mind in a non-attached (but fully aware) way. Not 'doing' by moving the limbs with just 'motor' muscles, making movements that feel connected through the spine and shoulders from the dantien and the ground. This relates to "no beginning and no end" "no gaps and no blocks" Again, hard to explain on the net, I could show you and get you to do it, but words don't do it I'm afraid.
    Just to add lastly, I am always moving forwards, always open to questioning my methods and my training, both for myself and for my teaching of others. I come across as a strong personality on here, beause that's how I actually am, but please don't mistake that for narrow-mindedness - I'll listen to anything that's out there and then make my own decision about it when I'm ready to. :cool:
     
  20. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I think I might know what you mean from Chen style practice, the xin jia I did had quite an overtly soft body - bear in mind it is not a subtle form - everything was expressed in quite an obvious way. I know how it feels to push things into place from the ground or lower torso, and the body looks and can often feel like it is largely moving itself once the wheels are set in motion. This approach is similar to the whole way I was taught from the beginning - large and overtly expressed movements in the beginning, allowed to become subtler over time. Everything is pushed into place from below. I still attribute it all to programmed physical skills, but what the hey!

    I imagine the 9 circles you practice may be not entirely unlike my "martial rotation" reeling silk stuff. All that remains are differences in explanation, interpretation and world view. I often find myself agreeing with Onyomi's perspective on many things, other than the controversial existence or non-existence of qi.

    Anyway, I am glad that you have tried to convey what your training actually entails.

    Take care all.
    :) Joanna
     

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