Hi, here is some footage of pushing hands competition. Am not very familier with this goings on very much. Can anyone explain the rules here/ what's going on scoring wise. Like is the front foot supposed to stay on that line And what are your thoughts on this aspect of training. Good things from it, bad, indifferent ? Seems to me good training for clinch range. cheers [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uItMgyX_CEA&mode=related&search=taijiquan"]06 Berkeley Push Hands Competition - YouTube[/ame]
Hi ZD, not sure about this sort of work you know. As 'fun' its great ... as an actual practice ... not sure. IME push hands is not a win loose sort of practice. It is designed to train skill sets. It is such a multi functioned tool for training ... it is quite simply brilliant and can change dramatically dependent on focus, intent etc. BUT i would not consider it to be anything other than a training method ... certainly not competetive. The thought of making it a competetive practice is interesting ... I think on one hand it can be good to test specific skill sets ... on the other ... better off putting on some padding and going at it....You would see your flaws faster! I am indifferent i guess ... i can see the merits from a 'fun training' perspective ... Cheers Chris
What the? I thought the guy in blue was the winner? I don't understand the rules at all. From my perspective, this is more fun (like Middleway said) than TCC. It seemed they were just reaching out grabbing with their limbs only with not much whole body pushing involved. What do you guys think? I'm not saying this training isn't useful, but .....
I know that this is not tai chi but look at this guys fighting style. I think it embodies many of the principles of Tai chi, actually he is a far better fighter then any tai chi practitioner I have seen. Look at the way he redirects the energy of a punch, perfect according to the principles of tai chi. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B7N9_Y8KVA&search=silat"]YouTube[/ame]
Ok, so the first clip was non compliant and looked messy....cant be tai chi. The second clip is compliant (or at least semi compliant) and looked cool, so it is tai chi..... .....Hmmmm I sense a double standard and the need for a reality check.
Bold statement, so I'm sure you know all the highly skilled TCC people to make this assesment. LOL. BTW, most of the stuff in that video would be almost impossible to pull off in a "live" situation. It's just a demo, nothing more.
Some of the stuff they we're doing looked quite similar to some systema stuff I've seen. Is there a relationship between system and ROSS? And as for liokault... Shouldn't you be doing some form, in light of your current lack of wrestling partners??? EDIT> Some of the fancy stuff might, but the principles behind it are extremely effective.
Do you not do Push Hands as part of your Tai Chi training? I know those who aren't interested in the martial application of the forms wouldn't do Push Hands. I'm new to Tai Chi, but my first class I was immediately exposed to Push Hands along with the first movement of the Yang form.
My Master's Master had only one thing to say about Taiji 'competitions'... "Taiji competitions are for idiots" lol Personally, I don't ever get what's going on in push hands comps (and I've got 3 vcd's from China of em I've watched so far btw lol) - I prefer to 'train' push hands rather than 'compete' overmuch, although I do go for a bit of competitiveness as it's good ego training too... ...we just set boundaries and/or rules as we go along, then go for it.... Yesterday we set a space you had to get the opponent to step out of or throw them out of. Great fun I'm actually fairly rubbish at 'official' push hands tho so I prefer to stray more into a kind of soft handed sparring hybrid most of the time lol a bit like the bagua stuff... it suits me better. I particularly don't like working with fixed feet, it just feels all wrong to me. I can do it a bit, but I prefer to move about more than that... (and yes I do know the restriction is deliberate in trad push hands and why, before anyone tells me... ) Re: second clip, systema et al is fairly deceptive to watch. Like most good IMA it looks like nothing from outside - but works really well on the receiving end. Obviously those shots were demo's of guys who train together often, but my experience of it was that it is highly effective tbh Have you ever trained in any Russian styles Liokault btw? :Angel:
I do some. but not as regular or the variation that i'd like to get round. I am looking to remedy that though. It has proved a little tricky for one thing and another but I'm sure at some stage there will be avenues for me to explore it the way I'd like to. As has been mentioned there are lots & lots of ways to play hands, and it is a great training vehicle for various methods etc.
Sure watch countless demos of aikido, ninjitsu etc. and you could well say they embody some of the principles very well too.. Far better ? No, I don't think so there are guys on this very forum who can pull of that stuff at that speed and co-operative I'm sure. When you train peng and lu in the body that's what it looks like ( the bits where he was receiving the punches to body right?), and some people in tc still do train that.. The russian stuff is very similar to IMA. But try that at full speed & non co-operative - it won't look like that buddy. Nice training demo though. he wasn't fighting now was he ? wakey, wakey, rise and shine.
Thats Scott Sonnon in the clip, Sambo & ROSS guy, except he changed it, added, took away, etc. and now calls it RMAX.. that bit is from his "softwork" DVD.
I like the more "competitive" style of practise as part of training. It's a great way to see how you are getting on. I don't agree with the idea it strokes the ego, quite the opposite in fact. It totally crushes the ego. How much do you think my ego grows when I get pushed over by someone who has been coming to class for six months? After a while and a bit of thought and trial and error, you learn what it is you are being beaten by, and you work to eliminate that. Doesn’t take long to find something else you are getting caught with, then you work on that. You just have to try using Tai Chi principles. It’s hard at first because your sensitivity isn’t so hot and you are trying to deflect too late. We all know, the longer you do it, the better your touch is and the earlier you can get it thus making it easier. Even that isn’t a guarantee. At times I can feel a push or pull coming, but I still get caught, can’t deflect it away. That’s a problem with technique. Although I feel it, I am letting it through to my body an trying to turn the push off from there. I need to deflect it out in front of me, instead of right in at my body. Things like that you find out. I also come up to high and break my own root, especially in a push. Working on that too, even in my forms. I know I have to really work on my root and practise the form thinking of my root. As with the other things, it is a great tool for developing. The best thing about it is that it shows you where you need work, which much of the other exercises hide. Then again, that isn’t their purpose. I like fighting, but I also like form. I work to be good at it all.
if you got a sumo to do this with them, he would flatten them easily, on this idea, it is not very good taichi, infact it is crap.
IMO People come to taiji at different ages, in different states of health and for different reasons. there's no reason why a good teacher can't accomodate them all. Some are old 'scrappers' and don't need to be tested they just want to work on the techniques and principles, they know how to work it for real. Some are young bucks and without some sort of 'testing' ground would never know the 'feel' of combat and how to make their taiji work under pressure. Some just want health and have no interest in the application of their movement. The first clip just looked silly to me but if that's how people feel they want to 'test' themselves - I don't see anything wrong in it. The ROSS clip looks like okay training and seems to have a value in it. Application work in our taiji class wouldn't look so different on some nights. Pushing hands has to be formatted at first and be done in a variety of ways, as the skills become 'owned' they can move into freestyle that in the end almost resembles a real fight. It also moves into 'wall' training with the student being thrown against a wall in a variety of ways - at first to help them learn to hit the wall enabling a controlled adrenaline release and eventually to try and stop them from hitting the wall in a way that enables them to hit it correctly. That can end up very violent. I don't think a good push hands school ever really needs tournament.
Just to clarify, that's exactly what I meant by "good ego training" - provided - you understand and learn from it. I know you do, Mr Brido, I suspect others have not yet grokked that point... :Alien: I think you should get off the fence and tell us what you really feel lol :Angel:
Do you think you could do better? Standing in front of a young guy, of equal weight to you and with a certain level of skill. Now we apply to this, arbitrary rules, say no punching, no kicking (fixed feet if you like). The object is to make the other guy fall over, or move past a proscribed point (or if fixed feet, move his feet). I guarantee you that unless one participant has more massively more skill than the other, it will look more or les like the clip posted. Now, if we add to the rules: Not allowed to use force, not allowed to more fast or aggressively, suddenly it will look like taichi! This whole "I don't like competition" thing goes back to people not liking to see that their beautiful tai chi looks rough and scrappy when you meet even semi educated resistance....this is the natural state of tai chi, rough and scrappy with the odd flash of brilliance . If you insulate yourself from the 'test' to reinforce your pleasant 'illusion' about what tai chi should look like, you will just miss the opportunity for the occasional flash of brilliance .
