Punching Power V2.0

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by nightcrawlerEX, Jan 22, 2006.

  1. EaglePryde

    EaglePryde New Member

    I don't think that this is all. It refers to ordinary physiks. In my training, Mass is exchanged with inner energy, focused inside yourselfe to produce the force needed when hitting a target..Even Speed is increased through this.

    Sry for my bad english. I'll try hard to make the best of what i can :)
     
  2. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    I didn't really mean "all" big muscular guys. I pointed it out as an example. There are most definately very very fast guys out there that are very large in muscle tones.


    Hmmm.. I was looking at that site. It had a very vague description of how Bruce Lee had so much power behind the one inch punch. Which made the whole description that's in the site seem so sucky. If he would have told of how Bruce Lee exactly of how Bruce achieved the one inch punch, and how he did it. He wouldn't have been so naive.

    Where he went wrong is: "To deliver huge power in the exact range it's most effective: the last inch!"

    -The last inch is not most effective, but rather every inch from the beginning to the last inch is effective. To deliver the punch from point A to Point B.

    Unless if that's what he mean't. Rather than talking about Bruce Lee's punch.
    The One Inch Punch is definately not his most powerful punch.
     
  3. EaglePryde

    EaglePryde New Member

    I don't think so...the last short part of a punch determins its outcome greatly. In Tai Chi you learn diffrent outcomes at extreme short range. The only difference is how you channel you're power and if you stop shortly after contact or not.

    A punch could start slow and weak just to unleash it's full power at the end when focused in this last part.

    I am a very slim guy and no one would think i could deliver a huge amount of power onto another person but it's not true...i study under an old sensei in privat. He sure isn't someone with big muscles nor does he look trained but he's abilities, fighting skills and the amount of power he delivers are something i never experienced before. It's just how you focus, how you breath and move
     
  4. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    Chi is an important factor in daily life, and Chi is the inner energy that you have in you and in all of us. There is bad Chi and good Chi.

    I think what you mean't is. Mass is exchanged with kinetic energy, not with inner energy.

    I don't think you would be able to exchange Mass with Chi, do you know how many people would be skinney in this world? They would recommend it for diet plans all over the world. That would be amazing though. :D
     
  5. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    So I take it's mind over matter? That's what Bruce Lee has been into.
    If it's in that case the guy should have said so. And yes I agree it has nothing to do with muscles at all, and I like your point that that it's of how you focus, breathe, and move.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2006
  6. EaglePryde

    EaglePryde New Member

    Nay :) what i mean't is that you don't need mass as a factor to determin the force you realese through a punch :)
    Acceleration is important but not the mass...greater mass just means that you need more force to move it :) so acceleration would logicaly be solwer then with lesser mass :)
     
  7. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    EaglePryde, all of the factors contribute to release as a punch
    Mass (weight), Acceleration (speed), full body movement, Flow, Balance, Technique, shout of Kiap.

    Like you said, it determines how they move, how much focus they put into it, and Breathing that determines the power of a punch. So do some of these factors that i've mentioned just above.

    But leaving one factor behind will change the effectivness of a punch.

    So mass would be one of them.

    The equation for force would not be
    "Force= Acceleration X Inner Energy"
     
  8. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    someone please lock this abomination of a thread before it goes any further :bang:
     
  9. EaglePryde

    EaglePryde New Member

    Yes i agree partialy. But Mass isn't weight. A small particle could have the same mass as the earth itselfe. And this formula is related to physical mass an not to the build of a person in any way. This is why i mean't that it can't be used as is for martial arts and if then not as it is. Because factors like distance, fokus, speed, power you need to measure the output have to be integrated in it. And most of these factors aren't linear aswell. Your formula just tells us that the amount of energy you use is the energy you loose. In Martial Arts you try to overcome this factor because you're strongly related to the distance from you're first move with you're fist until it reaches the target. So it would be wise to put the most power into the punch at the end of it to prevent a to great power loss. Inner Energy would determine how much power you have in a certain way, focus would determine efficency...and so on

    But i agree that you can't exchange mass with inner energy in you're formula in this way. What i meant is that mass isn't such a great factor at all in martial arts and can be left aside because if i harden my bones and train my muscles, even if i stay skinny, my overall mass would improve because of the density and not of weight or how skinny or massive i look. And the amount of damage you inflict on a target isn't because how much mass a fighter has.

    Look it this way. Martial Arts isn't related to beating the hell out of someone by brute force. Is how to use their power against them, the points you strike and so on...

    I don't think it helps to use common maths and physics to analyse it :)

    Hope i could give you a better picture of what i meen :)

    Anyway it's interessting what ideas everyone has :)
     
  10. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    I kind of see what you mean now.

    "Your formula just tells us that the amount of energy you use is the energy you loose. In Martial Arts you try to overcome this factor because you're strongly related to the distance from you're first move with you're fist until it reaches the target. So it would be wise to put the most power into the punch at the end of it to prevent a to great power loss."


    Yup you will put the most power to the end of the punch, of when you snap it out indeed. Don't forget to make a fast punch you need a lot of power to initially to propel your fist and arm at the distance that you want, and high power to make the snap at the end. It lowers your consumption of energy than putting all power all of the way through the punch. But energy in will equal to energy out regardless. The harder you work the more energy you put into it. The less the work the less the amount of energy.

    Your muscles will get less tired if relaxed than tense.

    This will be off topic though. It will prevent me from clearing up more issues along to what I have to explain about mass, I guess. But anyways.


    What fuels us is the sugars (energy) from food that is broken down. The sugars are basically energy for us to make us move, breathe, focus, and etc. The sugars are made and broken down further and further until it is excreted out of the kindeys, and out of the intestine.

    Going back to the chart, to move something you would need: In order; Food is consumed > Food is broken down into sugars > sugars used as energy to have the body to perform tasks.

    Don't get me wrong but a mass of some sort has to take up some volume with in a container. Mass is another thing for matter.


    Anyways I think I understood a bit of it. ^_^

    Yup very good replies :)
     
  11. Rakim

    Rakim Valued Member

    Soz ppl, cudnt b @ssed to read all the replies, so if i repeat anything, my bad......

    As far as I know, plyometrics (clapping push ups etc) work on the fast twitch fibres in your muscles, making faster punches possible. However, a fast punch is not gauranteed to hurt/damage more than a slower punch. In boxing, I learn how to get weight behind a punch, using this technique i can make the heavy bag move quite efficiently. My fastest punch is my jab, as it is with 99% of boxers, yet it is without doubt my least powerful, purely because there is not as much pivoting, rotation, or weight behind it. My right body hook is my most damaging punch, yet it doesnt move at an amazing speed, i just lock my arm, pivot my hips, and follow through with my weight leaning ahead of the punch. Hope this helps.....
     
  12. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    lol yeah you repeated some of it, that's alright man. All replies count, thanks for the additional tips. :)
     
  13. kyokutsuki

    kyokutsuki Valued Member

    y does every 1 think that Speed= Power ?/

    I think they mean Power= Speed x Mass
     
  14. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    Precisly, they do mean it by that way. They don't really bring the "Mass" part into the equation. I could see that they wouldn't want to anyway.

    Power derives from the mass that is driven into an object by speed.

    So the faster it goes the more power that goes into it from the weight (mass) behind it.

    We are basically made of mass. (skin, bones, muscle, fat, blood)
     
  15. TigerDude

    TigerDude Valued Member

    OK, I'm going to throw in on the physics of the discussion.

    Force = mass x acceleration is not really the issue here. In this equation, the force is the force of your muscle contraction that accelerates the mass of your arm (& the rest of you). A better use of this equation is acceleration = force / mass. A strong puncher will be able to move his or her arm quickly.

    Mass is not weight, but for all intents & purposes, it is the same on our planet. Something on earth that weighs a pound or kilo will have that equivalent mass. You can change that mass from adding muscle or fat, and possibly a small amount of bone, but it's mostly going to be how big you are. Note that fat will add mass, but will reduce your velocity (F=ma above). As such, your overall kinetic energy will be less.

    Kinetic energy is the primary mechanism of imparting a hurt to someone or something. Kinetic energy will be lost at impact from friction, heat, etc. Kinetic enery = 1/2 times mass x velocity-squared. As such, faster speeds will move up kinetic energy more. Momentum or impulse is mass x velocity. The momentum of two bodies is conserved, which means that the momentum of your punch (fist, arm, & body of they are locked together at impact) will turn into backward momentum of the receiver of the punch.

    Clearly, both speed & mass are important. If mass were not important, there would not be weight classes in boxing, Muay Thai, etc. Butterbean might not be the fastest puncher, but I wouldn't want to get popped by him.

    Hope this helps.
     
  16. nightcrawlerEX

    nightcrawlerEX Valued Member

    Force = Mass X Accelleration

    Increasing either mass or accelleration will add power.

    The way i see it is that mass is a factor most people are working on already so I focus on speed.

    And also i do not beleive that that mass & accelleration are the only factors of a punch. There is...

    Density of fist
    Technique
    Speed
    Mass
    Stance
    etc.
     
  17. TigerDude

    TigerDude Valued Member

    I agree. I thought your article was well written. Sorry if it appeared otherwise. I just have a thing against bad science (a couple of other posters).

    Force, tho, is not the force of the punch. The force is the force applied by tour muscles to your arm.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2006
  18. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    Really what mass is defined, is the quantity of matter which a body contains which is which a body contains, as measured by it's acceleration under a given force or by the force exerted on it by a gravitational field.

    In general use that we use to desribe it as (weight).

    But mass is more of a scientific kind of word that we use. But we hardly use the word "mass" in this world, but rather we would use it in an equation in physics.
     
  19. Shrukin89

    Shrukin89 Valued Member

    And welcome to MAP :)
     
  20. yodaofcoolness

    yodaofcoolness New Member

    Here are my thoughts...

    Power = Mass and Speed

    The mass that can be placed behind a punch is determined by technique, muscle [strength (slow twitch?)], and friction between feet and ground.(as well as how big you are of course)

    The speed is determined by technique, muscle (fast twitch?) and friction between feet and the ground.[as well as how big you are.(how much you have to get moving)]

    I think inertia is a big factor, because for the "speed" part you have to work against your inertia to get moving and for the "mass" part you have to keep it going.


    [edit]- "A wide stance increases balance and power in your punch but if the stance is too wide it can decrease your mobility and movement speed."

    Couldn't you say the same thing about a long stance?

    Is this article talking about all punches or just certain ones? Please clarify.

    [edit again!] *Speed
    Force = mass x Accl

    So as far as your potential for speed is concerned, Force is the fast twitch muscles and the mass is you (everything you have to move while doing a punch). Now if you have longer arms, then you have more distance to accl. So by the end of your punch you have more speed than someone with shorter arms?

    So if that is the case a bigger person would have more mass, more speed, and more reach? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2006

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