Psychopathy and the martial arts.

I noticed there was an old thread about this, but I thought we could come from a new angle, and/or collect info into this one.
Relatively recently people have defined that the Amygdala is core to the neurological process of the so called 'psycho' and as this is instantly the most terrifying of opponents, and the limits of ones own ability to defend oneself, I thought it would be good to draw the info together and consider a few things. Like, does it make you a 'better/more capable' fighter to be classed a 'psycho' are everyday people likely to encounter them on a day to day occurrence; and perhaps most importantly, if they have no emotional response to people, is there a relatively simple way to convince them not to kill you?
All views currently welcome.
(by the way, I've been tested, I'm not psychopathic ... I'm autistic)

 

You been reading Baron-Cohen?

 

I don't think it necessarily makes you a better fighter.

I've been out of psychology for a long time, but if I remember correctly, the key features of psychopathic personality are extreme narcissism and self-centeredness and inability to empathise with others. The narcissism might lead you to train hard as a means of demonstrating your superiority over others, but there's nothing particularly inherent to the psychopathic personality that would impart fighting skill - perhaps just a lack of concern for your opponent which might cause most people to hold back a little in self-defence.

The issue with personality disorders is that they're not only diagnosed based on psychological features but also on the impact these features have on your ability to cope in everyday life. In effect, there's probably a continuum of degrees of empathy, narcissism etc but you'd only pick up a clinical diagnosis if your personality made you unable to function in society - such as if you started stealing, acting violently or recklessly.

Psychopaths aren't a homogenous group. They can have different characters - they're not all Hannibal-Lecter-style educated smoothies. The trick to not getting murdered by one is the same as keeping yourself safe generally; don't hang around with criminals and violent people.

 

No (you don't mean Sascha Baron-Cohen do you?) I was actually inspired by Jon Ronson (The Psychopath test) which made me realize that the definition of the personality type has come on quite a lot.

 

No I mean Simon Baron-Cohen, his cousin funnily enough.

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/people_Baron-Cohen

 

That's interesting, thanks. But my friend has just turned up, so I'll get back properly soon.

 

Haters gonna hate

 

the only thing i know is that martial arts might be likely to attract the sociopaths because they tend to be attracted to positions of power (which senseis hold)

 

But martial arts are a very high-effort way of getting such a position. Very few people become instructors and instructors aren't really held in a great deal of social prestige and don't make much money. If you're a person for whom the trappings of power and prestige are important, you're more likely to get those by becoming rich through business or crime.

 

hmm, not quite relevant, but I have had a psychotic episode and have been diagnosed as having a schizoaffective disorder.

I don't think anyone ever feared sparring me!

 

I'm hosting a free seminar on this very topic. If you can't make it, just tell me where you live and I will come and pick you up in my unmarked, windowless white van. It's no problem, really.

 

1) Does it make you a better fighter? Not necessarily. The lack of empathy for other human beings, the overly inflated sense of self-importance that comes with the narcissism traits that affect many psychopaths, the high from the sense of control as you show you can physically dominate another human who thinks they can defend themselves. All of those might make a "psycho" a lot more dangerous to be against but it doesn't automatically make them a better fighter. The narcissism might cause them to train harder so they can demonstrate their physical superiority, but that's not always the case.

2) Are you likely to encounter them on a day to day basis? Unless you're on the board of directors of a major company, probably not. Most CEO's, directors and chiefs of major businesses demonstrate a disproportionate amount of psychopathic tendencies in the workplace, but they're not necessarily psychopaths. They're actually quite rare.

If anything, you're more likely to bump into your "garden grown" sociopath, but you wouldn't necessarily know it. Crazy "I butcher you all, make love to your corpse then put you in my spaghetti" kinda crazy is obscenely rare thankfully.

We also have to bear in mind that psychopathy, sociopathy and narcissism aren't fixed things, they tend to have a sliding scale of how it affects individuals and how much it does or doesn't interfere with their ability to cope in society.

3) They do have emotional responses to people, but they lack any real sense of guilt or empathy. That doesn't mean they don't have ego's and the poorly inflated sense of pride, joy, excitement, lust and anything else that comes with being human. Or the sense of "fear" that comes with the risks involved, etc.

Pretty much. The majority of sociopaths and psychopaths who can't function completely in society usually have a history of antisocial behaviour, violent crimes, petty crimes, poor job commitment history, broken hearts, etc. In most cases they tend to be people you wouldn't necessarily want to call your friends and hang round with them anyway.

I was diagnosed with an "undiagnosed psychosis" a few years back. Initially it presented to the nut nurse team as classic schizophrenia, then they started seeing bi-polar tendencies, then something else they never mentioned specifically to me...

The only thing that seems to tick off all the boxes was DID with a "generic personality disorder", but it was also the one thing the nut nurses refused to accept, even though they couldn't really argue that the signs weren't there.

For the most part people aren't scared of sparring with me either. The sensei knows I have hallucinations, personality shifts and other bits to boot, so if I have bad days (or days where I don't even know I've been to the dojo) he tends to not let me spar on those days. On the whole, it seems to work and I don't think anyone else is the wiser.

 

Sociopaths aside,ever hear of "big fish in a small pond'? How many "masters" have we busted just here on MAP?

It's no secret that some seek some sort of prestige through MA training (or claims) even if only within those circles. I've met enough of such types.

 

Does MA generate/attract a greater number of fruit-cakes than any other social activity?

I have encountered a few who were definately borderline (or worse) in some kind of psychiatric diagnosis, but I have met similar in other walks of life.

 

Theres a wierd pop book coming out about people on the scale -

http://www.sociopathworld.com/

Interesting, but likely just to attract Dexter wannabees.

 

I believe it attracts a certain kind of fruit cake, but not necessarily a greater number. Of them the only ones that really annoy me are the narcissists and their ridiculously fragile egos. Narcissistic injury is fascinating to read about, until you happen to be the focus of the injury and the person hurt has been training significantly longer than you.

The thing is, learning a MA takes a very long time. You have to commit for a long time to get any real benefit, constantly trust that your partners won't unreasonably hurt you but still expose yourself to potential serious harm, listen and take orders from a lot of people you probably aren't going to be massively fond of, etc. It requires a huge amount of focus and discipline for initially not much reward. If anything, I would expect to see more down your local pub or betting shop.

 

Gosh! I went to the beach with my niece and nephew yesterday, I wish I'd been here to keep up.
Well, this is all very interesting, some I was aware of other bits not so much. The bits that stick out for me most are : The association of fear; the psycho, though maybe not afraid of you, might very well be 'afraid' of harming himself through combat; the narcissism may be what keeps them from fighting someone who might stand a chance at causing them harm. In other words, though some resistance might inspire them to try and dominate you, it also might make them think about self preservation in a pretty extreme way.
: Secondly, long term goals and desire; the narcissism might have the trait of making them think that they already know what they need to know about the martial arts, as they already feel the inflated sense of self, so it's possible they might get very annoyed with the idea of training hard, as it shows them up as being incapable.
But there might very well be those who are 'comfortable' with their psychosis, and the idea of being the best fighter might very well be tempting (like the military nutters who like killing) I know that I've met a few teachers who always had a nod and wink when talking about crippling and maiming opponents, as if they not only didn't care, but found it empowering as an idea.
...
I think it's possible that the idea of all that training and being shown up in front of the other students might actually put off most NPD sufferers and they would go elsewhere to gain 'power'; but there would be a certain type, ones that have gained a certain type of motivation, ones that want to cause harm with their own hands and realize that they have to train to do it; they would be some of the worst opponents I could imagine, not only being surprising and attacking with almost no motivation, but also having no restraint about causing the most damage possible. But they should (bloody hopefully) be very few ... keep your eyes open folks, you might be training with one right now ...
This has been very inspiring and just what I wanted from starting the thread, thanks to everyone, I look forward to being a part of the site.
On a personal note, thanks to those who gave links to outside sites, they were very interesting ... especially about Ali-G's cousin.

 

Psychotic =/= Psychopathic.

 

True, but there's a big difference between an 'episode' and a personality trait.

 

There's a bigger difference between psychosis and psychopathy.

They both start with 'psycho', but that's about the end of the similarities.