Prince.

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by Brutal, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. Kid Moe

    Kid Moe Peace that don't belong

    Yes... Yes I do think so... ;)
    Titles
    Junior Olympic Games Champion Heavyweight 1982
    National Golden Gloves Champion Heavyweight 1984
    Undisputed Heavyweight champion (held all three major championship belts; WBA, IBF, and WBC) – August 1, 1987 – February 11, 1990
    WBC Heavyweight Champion – November 22, 1986 – February 11, 1990, March 16, 1996 – September 24, 1996 (Vacated)
    WBA Heavyweight Champion – March 7, 1987 – February 11, 1990, September 7, 1996 – November 9, 1996
    IBF Heavyweight Champion – August 1, 1987 – February 11, 1990

    Records
    Youngest Heavyweight champion – 20 years and 4 months
    Junior Olympic quickest KO – 8 seconds

    Isn't this an accomplishment of a gifted/successful boxer? Again, I am not saying that he is the best ( I do not think that), but for you to say that someone who claims that he is one of the greatest knows nothing about boxing is plain wrong... That opinion may differ from yours but is closer to truth than you would like to be...
    Whether you think so or not, he ranks there quite well...


    That is why I asked... You show me a fighter and I will show you someone who knocked his block off or defeated him.. :) Prince just encountered a better fighter... That doesn't mean that he ain't good... Although personally, I never liked Prince...
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Nas became a one punch merchant after so many years of crusing on talent - when he couldn't land it on Barrera there was plan B

    I don't think he was all flash an no go however - he fought some solid opponents, but I always felt he never lived to his potential.

    As to favourites, well RJJ is mt personal GOAT, although I weep every time I see him get in the ring now. I am also a HUGE fan of Winky Wright, who is one of the most underrated fighters of modern times.
     
  3. Kid Moe

    Kid Moe Peace that don't belong

    I fully agree... :cool:
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    My main point was that I've seen/heard so many people over the years come on strong about Tyson. The vast majority of them know Mike Tyson the pop culture icon and they think that Tyson is boxing. I'm saying he's not (at least not at the angle they're coming from)... boxing is much deeper than just Mike Tyson. When I see people referring to Tyson and Nas in the same thread it sends up red flags as a boxing fan. It's usually this same lot that never has word one to say about current fighters or match ups. Or anything prior to the lates '80s or '90s in boxing. It's easy to be on the Tyson bandwagon (or current flavor of the month in boxing) by just watching highlight clips... again something that is very 'this generation'.

    Depends on how you look at it. Look at the opponents that he fought and the times in which he fought. The talent pool was as hardly as deep as anyone mentioned on the list. Not only that he had far fewer fights than anyone on that list. Compare his opponents with the opponents of the fighters on that list. He doesn't step into the upper echelon just by what you posted. For much the same reason that I don't rank Floyd Mayweather Jr. up there or Pacman either... are they good? Yes undoubtedly... would they have done well in a deeper talent pool? My guess is no. And it's not just these two or three... your Pernell Whittakers, your Roy Jones Jr... these guys would have had one hell of a time in other eras. What they could get away with in their time wouldn't have worked so well against the likes of Willie Pep or others of that caliber.

    It pays when considering boxing to look at numbers... one of the declining numbers for a long time in the boxing world has been experience. When experience is measured as; total number of fights and rounds. That number has been in steady decline for a long time now... and... tellingly the number that has been steadily on the rise... since about the 1920s has been the overall percentage of KO victories. In fact it's a spike on a graph if ever there was one... the number has almost trippled since the 1920s.

    Everyone on that list I mention is a knock out artist. Tyson doesn't make that list for several reasons which I can on about at length... (if you're interested I will) Yes he was a hard hitter... and possessed tremendous power... but that in and of itself doesn't make him a KO artists.

    Yes I can agree to this. I liked him... but I don't all over myself about him either. When the ego becomes just as big as the talent (or perhaps in this case bigger...) I tend to go cold on it. He did have an exciting style... and he was heavy handed... if I remember he came out of Brendan Ingles gym (St Thomas' Boys & Girls Club)... and Ingle is known to school some very unorthodox methods for his fighters. Interesting stuff... and Naseem is definitely that.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I think those guys would have shined in ANY era. Walker Smith had that elusive style and he performed quite nicely! RJJ in his prime would have schooled pretty much anyone IMO.

    Any mention of history has to put a nod to the big 4 too - Hagler, Leonard, Hearns and Duran. My vrother was a Tommy Hearns fan, but I was always in the Hagler camp (he beat Leonard, the judges beat him!!)

    I am a huge Holyfield fan too, but that is as much preference as anything. GOAT HW for me? The Brown Bomber. The first truly "modern" looking fighter, with a brutal punch and phenomenal killer instinct and timing. The second Schmeling fight still makes me shiver

    Unfashionably I was always an admirer of Tunney too - very, very smart fighter who out-thougt as much as out-fought his opponents.
     
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Now...I've not really followed boxing after it stopped being free to watch on the telly (mid 90's I think) so take that as you will.
    One thing I loved about Nas was how he could seemingly get power into a shot from the most bizarre angles. When he was off balance too.
    There were/are better boxers for sure but that flash power from nowhere always impressed me.
    And in Tyson's case...what he had was intent (in spades) and charisma (not the nice "take him round your Nan's" sort of charisma of course).
    Aside from his considerable skills as a boxer that took him a long way.
     
  7. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I became a boxing fan in the late 60's and early 70's. What you hear now of that time is Ali. But the heavyweight division back then was awesome. Besides Ali you had:
    Joe Frazier,
    George Foreman,
    Ken Norton,
    Irish Mike Quary,
    Ron Lyle,
    Ernie Shavers,
    Jimmie Young,
    Larry Holmes,
    and Sonny Liston.

    To get to the top you had to fight and beat a lot of quality opponents of varied styles. Boxers, swarmers, power punchers and just plain unorthodox (Ken Norton).

    It was a good time to be a fan.
     
  8. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    I was always wondering, is Ali considered to be on the top of this group of people that you mentioned above for a good reason? He definetely has a lot more reputation than them worldwide and he is considered by many people the best heavyweight of all times and a lot more things (the faster puncher etc). Does he really deserve all this recognition or a big part of it has to do with his personality,charisma and the way he was selling himself to the media? I wonder what boxing historians have said about this matter. I am asking this because I rarely see people mention Ali, in conversations about the top boxers of the previous eras..
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Sugar Ray Robinson in my estimation ranks above Ali in the pound for pound rankings. The question of Ali's fame is a complex one. At his core he was incredibly talented and hard working.... he also came into the limelight when boxing on television was becoming the big thing. Many rumors abound that the reason he beat Sonny Liston is because Liston took a dive at the request of the mob... who seeing that Liston was too black for lily-white America at that stage... hedged their bets on a light skinned Ali. Ali had charisma that translated into cash... 'the brash, flash loudmouth Ali... versus the murky, hulking, ominous Liston' (apply racial epithets where the boxers names are and you'll have a far more accurate picture of the times) - who actually worked as a mob enforcer for a time. Not a hard choice of who the easier more cash lucrative sell on television was. Not that any of that takes away from Ali's career as a boxer... that career was firmly cemented when he fought Ken Norton and Norton broke Ali's jaw the first round... Ali went on to fight the whole fight and win. Talk about mettle and determination. Awesome.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  10. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Great thread guys!
     
  11. Kid Moe

    Kid Moe Peace that don't belong

    Understood and agreed... Especially with the part in bold... ;)
    Hey, hey... Back off there mate... You do not want to start talking about my personal favorite Roy Jones Jr... :mad: :D He would have mastered any boxing era...
    Especially when you look at some of the guys you mentioned... They had like close to (and sometimes over) 200 fights... I am sure that most of them were not high quality but still... Nowadays, champions have one or max. two fights per year... What else could they measure then?
    I still do not agree with this point, although perhaps you know something I don't (which wouldn't surprise me btw)... :) I think that Mike had the strength of a jack hammer, extreme stamina and speed of mongoose (for a heavyweight).. I would not call him a KO artist as there are better boxers to get that title, but he made all his opponents wet their shorts when going into the ring and that counts for something... :)
    His ego was... Well... Out of this planet... But I am quite used to that. Showboating in boxing is a common thing and I perceive it as part of the circus... He was a good fighter... You remember Chris Eubank? Also one of my favorites BTW.. He was very cocky and his ego was also big... But IMO brilliant fighter...
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  12. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    He's on top of that list because he beat all of them. How does Mike Tyson compare. IMO he would have lost to Ali, Holmes (in his prime), Foreman( early not late), Shavers and Liston for sure. Norton, Lyle and Quary would be a toss up. Frazier and Young I don't know. Joe and Mike were too much alike to be able to call that and I don't think Jimmy Young had enough of a punch to him outside. In that time frame he would have been a top 10 heavy weight but I don't see him winning the title.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I mentioned him earlier but here is a brief series of clips where Tunney struts his stuff - smart fighter!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-9gW3lJmVM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-9gW3lJmVM[/ame]
     
  14. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Hannibal, I swear that I saw Gene throw a JKD straight lead several times in that clip, including the vertical fist. LOL.

    I am familiar with Gene because he is a fellow Marine and a very slick boxer.
     
  15. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    First of all thank you and m1k3jobs for your replies..

    So, you think that Ali is indeed the best heavyweight of all times?? I recall that in another thread you also spoke highly about Jack Johnson, the first black heavyweight of all times. I hadn't heard anything about him before reading your post, so I guess this another thing I have to thank you for:).

    I made a little research about him and I was impressed by his strong character and personality!! One of the fiew extra ordinary men I have come across and respected so much. Many people don't think highly of sportsmen, because many of them are illiterate and crude, but guys like Ali and Johnson refute those viewpoints..
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yes you probably did!

    It is no secret that Bruce watched a LOT of old footage of Tunney, Dempsey et al.

    A lot of the Tao was taken straight from Dempsey
     
  17. Pkhamidar2com

    Pkhamidar2com Panda Member

    Haha i have to say prince naseem is damned funny because of the way he dances in the middle of fights. Yeah you shouldn't do that but it definitely cracks me up hahaha! hes so annoying to his opponents (i mean did you see that video of his long as hell intro to the ring? haha he was dancing half of the match!, no more than that!), he really aggravates the other fighters like that. I mean i know i would get aggravated by that!
     
  18. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Slip, the Norton camp disputes when the jaw was broken. If I remember correctly they put it it was the 10th or later. Still impressive to fight 5 rounds with a broken jaw.
     
  19. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Wow! Brutal comes on here and says he likes Naz and gets slated! Well, I have to say, I LOVED Naz. What an entertainer! And have a look at his record and what he acheived. The dude could fight. It's easy to criticise someone when they have lost, er, once to an all time great. And in my opinion, if the Barrera fight had happened earlier, I think Naz would have stopped him. But by the time the fight came Naz wasn't training properly, had a load of "yes" men around him so he was getting away with murder, and he got what he deserved. He thought he only had to land one hard punch and that was it. But give him his due. Love him or hate him, I bet most of you watched when he fought. I know I did.

    As for Tyson, I think he was every bit as good as the media would have you believe when he was young. Heavyweight champ at 20? Come on, that's awesome! Would he be champ now if he was in his prime? Hell yeah! The man was just a wrecking ball. A wrecking ball with great technique.

    As for boxers being A-holes, does anyone remember some of Ali's behaviour? Womaniser, racist, etc.
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No, Brutal gets slated for behaving like an idiot and it carries over into a lot of other thread he is involved in - the Naz thing was secondary
     

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