Pressure Points

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Melanie, Feb 24, 2002.

  1. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    LOL!
     
  2. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    But ...

    Chi and internal energy/whatever aside, you say "in the main". Do you believe that there are pressure points but that people have built on the hype e.g., using TCM to confuse and mystify the issue? I've been knocked out by having the inside of my legs kicked. There was no shock to the brain (apart from the 'oh dammit' factor). How would you explain that? (Please be kind :)).
     
  3. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -I know that I am in the minority on this one, but I really do believe in both pressure points and chi/ki, as well as chakras. The difference between me and many others who share my beliefs is that I don't mind using some of the more "western" terms for them as well. For example, while some may term it chakras, I can call it that or I may refer to it as the endocrine system. Chi/ki is a broad base subject, but in this context, I just as easily refer to it as the central nervous system. Pressure points? Nerve centers.
    -The reason many use TCM and asian terms for this is that most early "research" was done in this context and you can most easily find refference and info, espescially in martial terms, in this context. I also feel that we have merely begun to scratch the surface in the potential here. Is it STAR WARS, IMO, no. And there will always be the second-rate stage magicians who will try to capitalize on this, but there are others who are legitimately trying to explore this. I support this. Just like the charlatans, there will always be some who will never except this becuase it does not fit there concepts of reality. Even if given proof, they would deny it. For example, I live in the buckle of the southern "Bible belt". In the local newspaper's letters to the editor, at least once per week, someone writes a letter criticizing evolution and how the "creation theory" has been proven beyond any doubt by "Christian scientists". Now, I happen to even be a Christian, but these fools loopholes of logic are big enough to have their own zip codes.
    -My point (long day, must go to bed) is that if you come to an idea with a belief system that allows no room for any other possibility, you will find a way to shut down any other idea or evidence that does not fit your model of belief. Going back to my example; "the world is only 5,000 years old since this is what is siad in Genesis" and "all the means used my those scientists are wrong". These people will fabricate enough pseudo-science to convince others of their belief system who may lack much education and need to be reassured to stay w/ their belief. Yet, I have always wondered how the advocates of this particular tract of thought respond if they stand in a science museum in front of a complte dinosaur skeleton.
    -I have used pp's for years very effectively in grappling and while I feel it is a lower percentage tech. in striking, I still often find it effective there too. For those who choose to dispute it; fine, gives me one more thing that I and my students can stay ahead of them on.
     
  4. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    Pressure points are fun.. and of course allow you to releive mussle stress and be good at massage ..:D

    In terms of fighting its a matter of personal choice as they are no more difficult than correctly performing most moves though granted the target area is small ..for those who study aikijutsu and allow the attackers strike to just barely touch them before defending its the same type of mind set just a different application..
    Also effective when you want to disable an attacker without causing perminant damage this is in terms of striking

    Manipulating pressure points in a grapple is a given..
     
  5. Chris J.

    Chris J. Valued Member

    Hello all,
    Mostly I lurk. Today I think I will reply.

    Some years ago I heard about Dillman's pressure point books and purchased them. They created many more questions in my mind than they answered, and so I joined various discussion groups to obtain some direction and objectivity.

    During the course of my discussions it became obvious that many people were making many claims about how and why these things worked; and almost none of it was verifyable in the scientific sense. (!)

    This might not bother folks, but lets look at the meaning of the wors 'science' for a moment. It means that strenuous testing is carried out to deliberately disprove an idea and only after this exhaustive gauntlett has been run are the ideas reasonable taken as being likely. Even after acceptance, and idea can later come under delibrate attack at any time and can thus be disproven; ideas that persist through all of this tend to be very likely to be true, or at least close to true.

    I decided that I had no idea what made the nervous system function as it does, and therefore had no way of even beginning to assess the various theories that were out there. I made it my mission in life to become a subject matter expert.

    After first generally studying anatomy and poriferal nerve function, I moved into general physiology of the different synergistic aspects of the autonomic nervous system (i.e., the sympathetic and parasympathetic sub-systems). Still more information was needed and so studying the central nervous system ensued, the spinal network and the brain, etc. I studied reflex arcs, pain gating, phantom pain, and many many other related topics until I was ready to read the books that were pertainent to my questions; all of this took over 2 years.

    The books that were recommended to me were first Anatomy of Manual Dexterity, and then Thalamus Vol.1 & 2. These books were EXTREMELY difficult to read because of highly specialized terms that even most doctors would have had to look up in order to understand.

    After having run the workings of the brain and poriferal nervous system down with reference to pressure points and knock outs, etc., I can say that I understand a good deal about how these things work in medical terms.

    So I will address your initial question about what we teach about pressure points in class.

    It is useless to teach point locations without first teaching a valid and effective delivery system; it just can not be made to work. Also, the ideas about different times of day making certain points more active is useless in combat. (Point of fact, Dillman et.al. got their information wrong on those times anyway).

    Fighting using pressure points is beat taught by encorporating the ideas into the natural existing movements in the fighting system; the systems that are older were designed with these ideas in mind. Unfortunately many newer styles lost this information along the way and some of their inherent effectiveness is now diminished. It is best to first seek out the very oldest systems, and compare with the new, to see what has been lost. Much of the subtleties that were not well understood were eliminated from many styles.

    Using the Chinese names of points is fine for reference; but always remember that these were named by people who intended to needle them not to strike them. The two are not the same, and the application is therefore not the same nor are the locations of effective strikes necessarily the same. In fact, it is totally not necessary to memorize a vast list of points and descriptions. If this interests you then fine, but it is not necessary.

    The most useful areas to begin with are a small number of vital points, and also muscle points that yield reflex responses when they are traumatized or struck. These are so called reflex points. Typically reflex points are charicterized by a grouping of sensory cells that are called Golgi Tendon Organ cells (Golgi was a famous anatomist who has many different structures in the body named after him). These cells are found in skeletal muscles, typically in the upper and lower thord of a length of muscle, where the muscle begins to give way to either tendon connection. As the tissue thickens and toughens into the fibers of tendon, Golgi cells are interspaced between these fibers and serve to sense tearing of these fibers or other stress on the tissue. They then send pain signals to the spinal network, and these signals can give rise to instantly generated reflex movements that are pre-wired into the spinal cord.

    It is most useful to note that these spinal reflexes operate independently of the brain; that is, they happen regardless of the intentions of the individual of the state of intoxication. Even if their brain does not feel the pain, their body reacts in response to a strike to such an area.

    Because the brain is unaware of and unable to react to the instant change of balance, you can use these points to rob the individual of their leverage and therefore their strength. Also, you can steal away the force from their attack using these points.

    To use them, study the human muscles that are available to you in most grappling or other fighting situations; find where the tendonous tissue begins and teach yourself to strike there while doing the normal fighting motions that you already do. No need to re-invent the wheel here, just look for likely candidates and try using them. It sometimes helps to roll the muscle as it is struck, sometimes it is not necessary depending on the anatomy. Strike muscle into bone, using the edges of ulnar and radial bone, or any bony protrusion that affords itself to you.

    About Dillman's knock outs: Some work well enough, some only work because he hits hard enough that the head snaps sideways and the brain slaps up afainst the inside of the cranuim and is bruised. Some of what I have seen them do is outright fake (i.e., no-touch knock outs, etc.) In all cases their explanations of how and why the techniques work are less than complete, sometimes even doubtful. This is my somewhat educated opinion of course.

    The actual cause of knock out due to neurological trauma from impact is generally the same, regardless if it was a vascular type of strike or simple a nerve strike; what happens in between is quite different though. In all cases where unconsciousness results, parts of the brain are oxygen starved and some cells die as a result.

    IT IS IRRESPONSIBLE TO DELIBERATELY KNOCK A PERSON OUT IN TRAINING OR IN A DEMONSTRATION.

    To understand the mechanism one must study the functions and interconnections of the Reticular Activating System (RAS), which is a diffuse array of nerve cells that pervades the sub thalamic areas of the brain and generally originates in the brain stem reticular core, or magnocellular core. The RAS is what keeps us awake; shutting it down knocks us out. Damaging it gives us seizures. ;)

    -Chris A. Johnston
     
  6. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Hi Chris

    Good to see you posting here.

    So, given how much you've learned on the subject in the last few years, when are you going to write a book to explain it to the rest of us who don't have the in-depth neurological knowledge? I for one would be queuing up to buy it.

    All the best,

    Mike
     
  7. Chris J.

    Chris J. Valued Member

    Hello Mike,
    It really HAS been a long time! Good to hear from you again. A book, say you? No time for that; I am doing well just to post replies to lists, and so forth. ;)

    But, if there is a particular aspect of the process that you want to know about, please just ask and I will find the answer if I have not already done so. Obviously there are some answers that might take a hell of a long time to research, but it is other people's questions that originally made me begin looking into this in the first place. I just hated having a situation where a beginning student could ask me a simple question about a technique that I could not answer to my own satisfacti0on. ;)

    -Chris J.
     
  8. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Excellent post Chris. I look forward to next year's ;)

    Rgds,
    David
     
  9. Chris J.

    Chris J. Valued Member

    Hi,
    Sorry about length. You can't put a dozen eggs in a small pocket after all, without making a mess.

    -Chris J.
     
  10. Chris J.

    Chris J. Valued Member

    Hello again,
    Here is a brief explanation of the Chinese paradigm associated with the acupoints. It may be useful to you in steering your investigations into pressure points. Hopefully so. I am only including the bit about the acupoints. Sorry, again it is kind of long. ;)

    -Chris J.


    Acupoints, Extra points, Vital Points, Pressure Points, Trigger points, Reflex Points, and Chakra points

    -Chris A. Johnston, 2003

    OVERVIEW:
    A contemporary study of the ancient eastern paradigms is underway, and much confusion exists with regard to exactly how these ideas might relate to the modern scientific construct. It seems that each individual has their own distinct idea about how the two systems are related, and the differences in view are often drastic. The purpose of this discourse is to bring into discussion the various different eastern paradigms without assigning any degree of validity out of hand. Time, and research, will illuminate the place of these ideas with respect to science.
    ACUPOINTS:
    While western medicine is generally based on the study of structure, scientific observation and the observation and classification of phenomena in concrete realistic terms, ancient eastern medical disciplines are quite different. The eastern systems are rooted in old philosophies and are generally much less concerned with particular anatomy. The body is viewed as a dynamic, interactive system of vital forces and fluids. In ancient eastern medicine the nervous system was unknown, and this was largely due to two important factors: the practice of dissecting deceased humans was forbidden, and also the microscope did not exist. There would have been no way to learn about the finer structures of the body.
    A system of evaluation and description came about based largely on logic, theory and direct experimentation. Over the centuries this became what we know today as traditional acupuncture. In eastern countries such as China, Korea and Japan the body was viewed in terms of meridians through which vital life force flows, with discrete locations or points along these meridians. The locations of the meridians and point locations vary between countries, but the largest following is Chinese acupuncture.
    The Traditional Chinese Acupuncture paradigm uses acupoints to control the flow of Chi throughout the body, and adjustments are made in order to restore balance in this way. The meridians number 12, one for each major organ, as follows: Lung, Large Intestine (Colon), Stomach, Spleen, Heart, Small Intestine, Bladder, Kidney, Pericardium, Triple Warmer/Heater, Gall Bladder and Liver (the Triple Warmer refers to the head, upper chest and abdomen as three heater systems). Also there are 2 major divisions down the centerline called Conception meridian and Governing Vessel meridian, and beyond those there are combinations of seemingly related points that already fall on a particular meridian that are grouped into several Extraordinary meridians. These are the Girding vessel, Penetrating Vessel, Yin Linking vessel, Yang Linking vessel, Yin Heel vessel and Yang Heel vessel. These extraordinary meridians were devised in order to explain relations between points that are on different meridians, but seem to work together influencing some bodily process.
    Of the 361 standard acupoints a good many do not respond to strikes or pressure well, but are suitable only for needling treatments. There are other different sorts of points that occasionally correspond with acupoints. For instance some trigger points are also acupoints, some reflex points are also acupoints and some acupoints correspond with Chakra areas. Some acupoints are also considered vital points, while some respond to finger pressure and strikes and are thus pressure points.
    The study of medicine has yielded an understanding of the human form as it is conceived, develops and matures. This is called the ontogeny of an organism. At critical points in the development of the human form, sudden changes occur that trigger growth and differentiation of cells into tissues and organs, and this happens in basically the same order that the evolution of the organism followed in the past. Thus it is said that ontogeny mirrors phylogeny. The mechanism that gives rise to this phenomenon has to do with gap junction transfer, that is, the movement of simple chemicals and ions through tiny tubes between the cells that make up a tissue. Chemicals are distributed that act as hormones for the cells of a tissue, activating cell growth or cell death responses as particular chemical densities are reached. In this way the sudden changes of the growing organism are orchestrated.
    There are centers of ionic activity that have been termed organizing centers, and these areas exert a control over processes within a tissue as it grows via cellular hormones. As the organism becomes more complicated these organizing centers increase in number, and ultimately they remain as areas where a slightly increased magnetic flux can be measured with sufficiently sensitive equipment. In a mature organism these areas can be detected readily using SQID, or superconducting quantum interference device. These areas correspond with most of the standard acupoints very closely, which is surprising given the lack of any such technology when these points were first discovered and used. It should also be noted that areas that have not been used as acupoints also exhibit these properties.
    So it can be said that many or most of the acupoints represent vestigial organizing centers that exhibit increased magnetic flux due to increased gap junction ionic transfer. While this may once have been useful in the orchestration of the growth and differentiation of the organism, still in maturity these areas have links with the tissues, organs and organ systems that they helped give rise to. This area of research may shed light on some of the more unexpected properties of some of the acupoints.

    <Here there be charts...>
     
  11. Chris J.

    Chris J. Valued Member

    Hello,
    Here is the rest of the basic information in that article on other types of points. The article is currently being re-edited and some information added by another party; it should be on the Fighting Arts Magazine at some point soon. This was the rough draft.

    -Chris J.

    EXTRA POINTS:
    There are 361 standard acupoints that fall on meridians, and beyond that there are a good number of Extra Points that do not fall on a specific meridian, and also there are many New Points that would fall into this category. The total number of New and Extra points varies according to the text used, but generally most texts show the use of between 20 and 50 of these points. Extra or new points are used by many acupuncturists to implement treatments along with the standard acupoints. Some Extra or new points correspond with vital points or trigger points, and some are associated closely with nerves. Some of the Extra or new points respond to strikes and finger pressure and are thus pressure points.
    Various different structures are associated with acupoints. Some points correspond closely with a particular nerve branch that is exposed or accessible. Others correspond with a blood vessel, a golgi tendon organ or other muscle area, or a ligament or tendon. Certain acupoints owe their striking properties to areas of the brain that underlie them. Studying the crossectional anatomy of the acupoints, extra points or new points and their innervation reveals much about their function.
    VITAL POINTS:
    Vital points can be any location on the body that exerts powerful influence on the general workings of the body. Thus, many Acupoints are Vital points, as are some nerve points, Extra or new points, Pressure points, reflex points and even Chakra areas. Strikes directed at Vital points are often intended to be killing strikes. Plenty of references exist that provide precise locations of Vital points.
    PRESSURE POINTS:
    As previously mentioned Pressure Points are a subset of other points that respond to strikes and or other pressure. Some acupoints are also pressure points, as are some extra or new points, reflex points, nerve points and trigger points. The term Pressure Point has been used by many to refer to just about any other type of point. In general the term has become generic in that respect.
    TRIGGER POINTS:
    Trigger points are found in muscles exclusively. They are an exquisitely tender spot that can generally be correlated with one of a muscle’s golgi tendon organs. Golgi tendon organs are a group of specialized nerve cells that are often found in the top or bottom third of a muscle, and monitor the tension and condition of tendon and or ligament connections to bone and or muscle. Occasionally these points correspond with some other type of point, but this is often not the case. However they almost always will work as a reflex point although not all are readily accessible or useful in the combative sense.
    Trigger Points are used in modern acupuncture to block the transmission of referred pain from one muscle to another. Pain referral is when the nervous system mistakes the location of a source of pain and an inflammatory response is sent to an area that may have no problem. Swelling and pain ensue, and other associated problems. Often treating the area where pain is felt strongly ignores the real source, and the pain continues to return because of this. Trigger point manipulation controls the pain gate mechanisms of the spinal cord that are found in spinal lamina II, the Substantia Geletinosa. The perception of pain is attenuated and the inflammatory response blocked so that normal conditions can return.
    NERVE POINTS:
    Nerve points are obviously any useful area that is associated directly with a nerve. Some acupoints are nerve points, as are some extra points, reflex points and trigger points. Some nerve points respond to strikes or other pressure and are thus pressure points, others are true vital points.
    Striking nerve points can trigger reflexes in a very predictable way and are thus useful to the combative arts. Some nerve points can, under particular conditions, trigger processes in distant areas of the body through interactions with the sympathetic and/or parasympathetic nervous system. Sometimes unconsciousness can be produced in this way, but not without its share of dangers. The mechanisms are complex and are not intended to be the subject of this discourse.
    REFLEX POINTS:
    Reflex points are any point that operates in such a way as to trigger muscles to flex in a way that operates outside of conscious control. This is like the rubber hammer to the knee tendon, which produces a sharp kick in response. Knowledge of these points is most useful to the martial artist, because they can rob the opponent of power exactly when they expect to be able to use it against you.
    Reflex points are generally associated with golgi tendon organs, which are usually found a third of the way in toward the belly of a muscle from its connections to tendon or bone. The golgi tendon organ monitors the tension and condition of tendon tissue, and when a dangerous circumstance is detected a signal is sent to reflex arcs in the spine. The reflex arcs then send signals for various things to happen to different muscles to prevent damage. Most notably the muscles controlling the next higher joint relax in an attempt to allow the offended area to move naturally away from harm.
    The first level of a reflex response is the withdrawal reflex. This is simply the relaxation of the muscles not being used, while particular muscles fire in order to pull away the offended area. This happens when a sudden but minor sharp pain causes you to involuntarily jerk a hand back.
    The second level of reflex response is a crossed extension reflex, where the contra lateral or opposite body side turns toward the pain while the offended side pulls away, effectively producing a rotation. This is done through reflex firing of a larger, more complex array of muscles than the withdrawal response.
    The third level of reflex response is sometimes called the launch reflex. Basically the whole body gets involved and the body launches itself away from the pain in a spasm similar to the flopping around of a fish. The usefulness of such a thing to the martial artist is obvious.
    Beyond the third level there are times when unconsciousness results. Again, the mechanism of this is complicated and it is not intended to be the subject of this discourse.
    CHAKRA POINTS:
    The term chakra comes from the Sanskrit word meaning wheel. Chakras are said to be connections between the physical and psychological bodies. Those who claim to have the ability to ‘see’ the charkas describe a colorful wheel of energy continuously revolving or rotating. They are described as being situated in the spinal column but with their reflections also detectable as whirling discs in front of the body. The order of the charkas is said to begin at the base of the spine and finish at the top of the head. Chakras are described as working through the body between front and back. A more precise estimate of location might be obtained from Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati.
    Each charka is said to vibrate or rotate at a different speed. The root or first chakra rotates at the slowest speed, the crown or seventh chakra at the highest speed. Each chakra is said to be stimulated by its own and complimentary color, and also a range of gemstones for various specific uses. The chakra colors are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet. The size and brightness of the wheels is described as varying with individual development, energy level, physical condition, stress or disease.
    It is believed by some that if the chakras are not balanced or if the energies are blocked, the life force will be slowed down causing the individual to feel tired, out of sorts, listless, or depressed. Physical bodily functions might be affected and diseases may develop, or in some cases the mind may also be affected. A negative attitude, doubt, fear, etc. might develop. While the physical aspects of the charkas might have many implications for health and healing, many concentrate primarily on the psychological aspects of these areas. The seven major charkas are said to govern the function of numerous smaller charkas that are connected to them. This complicates the paradigm greatly.
    According to the theory, there are lower chakras that are responsible for the evolution of instinct in the animal kingdom and no longer consciously used in humans. These chakras are said to be situated in the legs of animals. There are also believed by some to be higher chakras above the Crown. These are referred to figuratively in some of the more esoteric writings on the subject. Further information can be found through a study of the Kabalistic paradigm.
     
  12. Chris J.

    Chris J. Valued Member

    Come on, lets not just kill the thread here. How do some of you folks currently use these points, and does this use seem to make sense given what we know about them?
    We use the reflex points while establishing locks, arm bars and other control techniques associated with grappling. Striking the inside margin of the low end of the Biceps Brachi, for example, weakens the opponent while triggering a sharp withdrawal reflex away from the strike; this allows the application of several different techniques. Or, while doing an arm bar if the opponent is resisting strongly a sharp strike above and behind the elbow both weakens resistemce and causes a reflex toward where you would like the opponent to go. Or, driving a thumb into the base of the front of the neck launches the opponent backwards...

    -Chris J.
     
  13. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    hi Chris,

    We work very much on the same principle, often using a PP hit to get them to open up the real point of the technique.

    We never use them as the finishing technqiue, although a forearm into the neck should close pretty much everyone's eyes or at least stun them if enough force is used.

     
  14. goatnipples2002

    goatnipples2002 someone tryin 2 learn

    Just my .05

    I personally don't practice to strike a certain pressure point. I have no art I follow.....only philosophies that apply to city life. The days of swords and arrows is over now young punks have guns and pipe bombs.

    I have been conditioning my one knuckle punch for close to 18 months. I believe in the one strike one kill state of mind that is in Kara-te.

    If you hit someone with a one knuckle punch you are GUARANTEED to hit a pressure point and cause maximum damage. If it conditioned properly you will NOT break your finger. I like to hit under the arm, in the armpit/upper ribs area or in the neck/cheek/eye area. It is easier to hit in the body and cause a death or knucke out. The most effective points are in the heart/lung/bladder/kidney area.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2004
  15. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Valued Member

    How do you practice, then? If you don't develop the ability to target small moving objects, can you believe you will actually be able to strike them under duress?

    Really? What might those philosophies be? I'm curious how your philosophy translates into technique.

    True, but police statistics show that of reported assaults, firearms don't figure into that great a percentage of them... That'd imply that training to defeat unarmed aggressors, or aggressors armed with clubs, knives and the like, is just as relevant today as it was 100, 200, or 500 years ago.

    I'd say the difference between then and now may only lie in the emotional state of the attacker - it seems people these days have much less regard for life than in previous times, though criminals are criminals regardless of the era.

    That is an impressive endeavor... How do you conduct your conditioning training?

    That isn't entirely true... If you strike the opponent with a full fist, you are likely to have several points underneath your fist, but that doesn't mean that you have actually "hit" those points. Some points require specific angles to cause their reactions, and without that angle they are no more susceptible to striking than any other location on the body.

    Agreed.

    Remember Musashi's admonition against having "favorite techniques..." Having a technique you like more than others is just as dangerous (to you) as knowing many techniques insufficiently well...

    Causing death by a punch to the body is unlikely... Assaults are infrequent. Assaults against trained individuals further lessens the probability of such an assault occurring. Then, given that most people who practice MA don't engage in "live contact" training all that often, it is highly unlikely that someone with special martial training would actually be able to effect a "kill."

    I see on your profile you are from Bellevue. I am from Omaha originally, and graduated from Bryan High. Where are you? I could suggest some interesting facitlities in your area that might help you in your training...
     
  16. goatnipples2002

    goatnipples2002 someone tryin 2 learn

    NEED MORE HELP? GO buy a clue

    mr matt what a character you are.....

    When I said I don't practice to hit a certain PP I meant that I don't defend myself with the one intention of trying to strike cv22 or cv17 or the dan/tan tien. If we could talk I could answer better. You take what is given. Meaning if A neck strike is feasible then go all in or if a groin strike is open then move in.

    I go by alot of philosophies that I really don't want to explain because you aren't here to learn only ridicule. Some examples are....

    Attack and defend simultaneously (to me the greatest and best)
    Economy of motion
    One strike one kill
    It's better to master few techs, than learn alot and master none
    Centerline theory

    Do you need more? If so OH WELL.

    How naive...statistics. Tell my gilrfriend she's a statistics, and any other girl or man that has been violated in any way. Whether it be robberd, raped or assualted. Let talk real life not no damn statistics. I live in America where crime is the number one trade/skill. I teach rape prevention and the one knuckle punch is taught because it is the most effective strike (if conditioned properly).

    I conduct my training on and iron palm bag my mom made for me. I filled my bag with MUNG BEANS...very important beans. I strike the bag 100 times in the morning or whenever I get up then I TRY to do the same before I crash, I usually don't because I'm too damn tired from working. I also use DIT DA JOW that I made 2 years ago...it reduces ANY form of injury and I have yet to experience any scarring.

    matt-That isn't entirely true... If you strike the opponent with a full fist, you are likely to have several points underneath your fist, but that doesn't mean that you have actually "hit" those points. Some points require specific angles to cause their reactions, and without that angle they are no more susceptible to striking than any other location on the body.

    Who ever taught you this BS needs to behead themselves. Anybody knows that 10lbs of pressure in a dime sized area is surely going to cause more of a neurological overload/damage then 10 lbs of pressure in apple sized area. The reason being is that the more nerves involved the more paths there are to dissapate the pain. The less nerves involved the less paths to dissapate the pain. You still want to be hard headed...try this :D

    Let a friend punch you in the stomach with a fist as hard as they can...do whatever you do when you get struck...breath, tense up, cry whatever. Then let the same friend hit you with a PROPERLY formed phoenix eye or tiger's tooth or ippon ken or one knuckle punch. You tell me the difference. I have been hit in PP most don't hurt right away...know why? but the pain can get very intense in a matter of seconds. The only reason I say the stomach is so you don't damage the strikers hand.

    The stikes cause to totally different pains. The tiger's tooth is an internal damaging strike and a fist is external damage. Most people bruise when struck with a full fist, most people hurt on the inside with no external damge when struck with the phoenix eye.

    To me the one knuckle punch is not a technique, just a strike what you do before the strike is technique. So NO, I do not have a favorite technique. I have a favorite strike that be used by ANY art because it is merely an extenion of what people currently use. The real question is will it save your life when someone else is trying to take yours via mureder, rape, assualt or robbery.

    And about the causing death thing with a body strike it is very EASY with 1 knuckle punch. It's called ruptured organs and internal bleeding. Also broken ribs puncturing lungs. Oh wait I forgot you don't practice these things because they could hurt someone. So do you go to one of those schools that says kick with the instep and not the shin?

    Your last paragraph says it all.....what a doozy.
    Because one is trained does not make them inhuman any person can bleed, break and fracture. If you learned to attack and defend as one you may understand the one knuckle punch.

    Most places in Omaha are a joke. They want money not to train people to defend themselves against the real problems. I have tried many times to find people who would like to train but no takers, will I had one guy who taught me some Wing Chun, that really helped. You should read ALL my past posts, ignore the immaturity in some of them I am way older and wiser now. I hope you will be one day too. I have agued my beliefs and others so read up.

    I really dislike people that have attitudes like yours, but I look past your faults and blame immaturity. So you can stop talking to me like I'm some young punk. I'm a grown ass man that's for real about self defense. I don't do this for fun or exercise...I do this for safety and survival. Be wiser in your posts. :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2004
  17. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Chill out goatnipps, this is a place to discuss not bicker with someone!

    |Cain|
     
  18. Nrv4evr

    Nrv4evr New Member

    give him a bit of credit, he managed to turn an attack into a 16 paragraph filled with various tidbits of empty claims and some truths... there's a first for everything.
     
  19. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Valued Member

    I'm a character? Let's examine your responses to my comments for a moment, shall we?

    That clarified your original comment of:

    That comment was vague at best, and I took it to possibly imply that you didn't practice specific points, just the strike you are fond of... You made yourself more fully understood by explaining that you train to strike whatever target is presented. No argument there.

    Where do you get that I am only here to "ridicule" you? I was asking for you to better explain your position. You have gone on the defensive when such action was not warranted.

    And your defensiveness is further exemplified by the "OH WELL" comment.

    Excuse me? I'm naive because I make use of official reports (of the cases that are reported) to get a feeling for what actually happens on the street? You're right... I should just stay in the training hall and never look outside for guidance on what is being used by potential opponents... :rolleyes:

    And you criticize my using statistics to assist my understanding of what actually occurs in the street? And what is "robberd?" :rolleyes:

    And how long does it take for your students to develop a properly conditioned phoenix eye fist? Why not teach techniques for rape prevention that will survive the "fight/flight/freeze" response that will, inevitably, render all but gross motor control useless? Wouldn't it be far more productive for a person to begin training a palm heel strike, one that takes little in the way of conditioning to use "right out of the box" than having them rely on a digital strike that may take months to develop and will likely fail due to the fine motor control it requires?

    That's nice that your mother made your bag, and that you prefer mung beans. I use sand in my bag for slaps, digital conditioning and the backs of my hands, and I strike the 6x6 posts outside my house for other strikes...

    :rolleyes: I don't recall insinuating that you would have had any scarring, nor that you would have injured yourself...

    Really? Tell Seiyu Oyata and his senior students that...

    I'm not debating that a strike with a smaller focus area will penetrate equally or less than one with a larger focus area. You said that using a phoenix eye fist you are "guaranteed" to hit a point. No, you are not. You are guaranteed to have points lying beneath the "footprint" of your fist no matter where you hit, but using a much smaller striking surface you will have to be far, far more accurate if you wish to strike a dime-sized point.

    Well, you keep thinking that a fist can't do "internal" damage. Then go visit the Yiliquan people in Bellevue and the Isshinryu people in Carson City, IA.

    See above.

    And that was the jist of what Musashi was saying... By having one specific strike, one specific weapon, one specific anything, you limit your options in responding to a threat.

    And you've verified this exactly how? With statistics of people that were struck with such a technique (let's not be naive about statistics), or by "killing" someone with the technique yourself?

    In a murder case I worked on a number of years back, the accused killed his wife by punching her with a closed fist in the stomach, rupturing her liver. Closed fist, not a phoenix eye. What ruptures an organ isn't necessarily the method of delivery of force, but rather the force itself.

    You make a lot of assumptions... You have no idea what I train in, nor how I train. I suspect you'd be rather surprised were you to attend our training. If you ever come up to the Tacoma, WA area, you are welcome to come and attend our training (it is an open invitation to anyone, anywhere, anytime) so you can see that I do not, in fact, engage in the kind of training you assume I do.

    Now you are insulting me because of where I grew up? I'm less and less inclined to take you seriously when that is the best you can do in rebuttal to my earlier post (especially when it was made without malice of any kind).

    More assumptions on your part... What color is the sky on your planet?

    I know. I grew up there, remember? All sorts of questionable schools, sure. But there are one or two that are worth looking into.

    If you were interested, and not so opinionated and full of yourself, I'd be happy to point you toward a couple places you might be pleasantly surprised by. But your cup is pretty full as is, so I'm guessing you wouldn't be interested at all...

    That is the problem with commercial schools - balancing truth and realism in training against continued guaranteed income. :(

    Again, I'd be happy to point you toward people that train pretty hard, but I suspect you wouldn't care to look them up. How do you define training? I'm just curious...

    Sorry, but I don't have the time nor inclination to read through what you admit were juvenile, puerile posts so I can better understand where you are coming from. I have been training for 18 years and have run into quite a few people much like yourself, convinced of your superior knowledge. You demonstrate your level of understanding by holding yourself up as an expert. I state things with authority thanks to having experimented, trained, and learned all over the world, however I'm still willing to entertain other perspectives. You, it would seem, are not.

    Really? Well, thank you for being so condescending. I asked my questions earlier in all sincerity so I could get a feel for what kind of training background you came from. You took it as a personal attack because of your own paranoia. Tell you what... You look past my faults, and I'll try to ignore yours.

    How old are you, anyway? Seems to me you have some issues with being taken seriously.

    Listen, if you want to put your attitude on the back burner, we can talk. I approached you with honest, sincere questions and you came out of the gates swinging. Fine. You want to continue to be a belligerent ass, that's fine too. Your choice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2004
  20. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    err i notice dillman being referred to here.... am i the only one who saw that student of dillmans (some fat guy i forget his name) being completely exposed by fox tv? using his "super deadly tappy knockout stuff" he not only couldnt do anything to the wee news reporter lady, but when they went to a real MA school it didnt work on the students there either. so far all i see is proof of it NOT working.

    oh and the pride rules state that you cannot attack the spine or use small joint manipulation, it says nothing about pressure points.
     

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