Discussion in 'Karate' started by Melanie, Feb 24, 2002.
So what is yiliquan all about? How much is their school? You say they are not afraid of contact?
OK we were both wrong, according to Yahoo maps its La Vista!
"West Dodge High" I ahven;t heard that in a while... Its not even west anymore, we have burger kings and strip malls out past 220th street nowadays...
I guess I'm not reading about it anywhee, I tried to find somewhere and couldnt hahaha
Well, I haven't lived there since 1995, so my memory has apparently faded (it's the first thing to go, y'know).
Check the article over at Cyberkwoon for basic info on Yiliquan. If you can't find it, let me know.
Kyusho points????? What are they?
Younger? Excuse me, Solane. I'm 14 years old and I would NEVER hit someone somewhere sensitive just to see would he/she keel over screaming. I don't appreciate the assumption that young people are irresponsible.
Right, so if I give someone a Gyaku zuki to the solar plexus, he doesn't double over groaning because I just rammed 8.5st of biomechanical force into his autonomic nerves, he doubles over groaning because I just disrupted a flow of supernatural energy in his body.
Oh well, I won't disrespect someone else's beliefs.
AAAAAAAAARGH. SOD IT. Not again...didn't realise this thread was 4 pages long. You guys have the right to murder me if I have said anything ignorant.
be careful with that, soembody might think you were part of a cult
:woo: consider yourself murdered
Quite, I agree, I'm 21 and at least as irresponsible and immature as most twelve year olds are stereotyped to be.
I’m a sceptic as to the practicality of pressure points in actual combat though. Some are accessible and, together with other techniques, can no doubt be an asset. But they are only a very small proportion of the techniques.
Dave Turton tells some interesting stories about pressure points advocates.
In so far as they are often sold as some sort of wonder weapon –yeh right.
Simply the more vulnerable points of the human anatomy - places you can attack where the result is seemingly out of proportion to the amount of force used. Some people think they are the same thing as tsubo - the acupuncture points. In some cases that's true, in many cases it isn't.
Hey, Kempo David. How go temple duties in the Order of the Elbow??? You achieved enlightenment yet? How is your friend the annoying guy? Apart from having a severe pain in his solar plexus that is.
Well, there is a nasty point on the tip of the elbow (the funny bone) but I think it would be hard to strike.
Habitual acts of violence??? is it the instinct of mind and body you say,,,?
That's not what I meant K David...anyway that was a crap short post and I've edited it....oh yeah, hold on, I've been murdered. Better shut up and lie around staring vacantly at the ceiling with blood pumping out of my mouth I hope you used a submachine gun or something Kempo Dave...the idea of dying peacefully in my sleep is repugnant
I believe - personally - the more tools you have available in self defence, the better chance you have in defending yourself. I'm not saying its the be all and end all - but a moments pain could be all the chance you have/need to get yourself either away from the situation or at least in a better position. IMHO.
Is it not wiser to have a smaller stock of reliable and adaptable 'techniques' which you've drilled loads in high pressure training?
Some pressure points are OK -particularly the obvious ones like the eyes, chin etc. But they tend not to be the ones people are talking about when they say "pressure point techniques".
Hitting most pressure points can be equated to walking up to your car and standing with your back to the door, key in hand. Then turning around and without adjusting your aim, putting the key into the lock first time -(Dave Turton's analogy).
Hitting pinpoint pressure points from specific angles is a fine motor action. Your ability to perform this type of thing is affected both by the attacker (how they are in relation to you, are they moving? etc) and your own adrenaline levels (Which affects heartbeat thus affecting brain processing thus reducing fine motor skills).
In a relatively static clinch situation, some neck pressure points may be accessible and easy to 'find' -but then a headbutt is also an option and we can make an educated guess as to which is most reliable.
kcatcher - your right - it does require fine motor skills to perform PP's. I am a Shotokan practitioner (please don't hold that against -I'm actually quite a nice person! ) and found that PP's helped explain several techniques I performed in the course of a kata, etc.
I didn't know a heavy fist on the shoulder (middle of) could distract and possibly stumble some one until I went to a PPs class. That would be more practical to me than head butting some one - as frankly I would concuss myself if I tried to head butt someone. Chest rubs (Terry Wingrove), neck/head points (Rick Clark), arm points (Zoltan Dienes), chin/side of mouth (Dave Turton) - yes I have trained with him! I have added to my self defence training. As I said before - I don't treat them as the be all and end all and have taken what I find useful.
This is a valid point, up to a point. I agree with your basic argument about fine motor skills. Personally I prefer techniques that use gross motor skills rather than fine ones. That doesn't mean I have to completely abandon the use of pressure points though. It is perfectly possible to target quite a number of points using only gross motor skills. I prefer to think in terms of pressure zones rather than individual points. Plus I often strike with quite a big weapon, such as the length of my forearm (ulna). So all I have to do is to match up my large weapon with a line or zone on the other person's body. Its a gross motor skill and its exactly what a number of classical karate techniques teach you to do.
So, can I hit a point the size of a penny in real combat? No. Does it matter if the points I hit are acupuncture points or accord in any way with chinese medical theory? No. Can I use vital strike points on a real, struggling assailant and make them work? Yes, I'm quite confident of that. I've never had to, I've not had to physically defend myself in years, but I've had enough experience of violence in my younger days to be a good judge of what I can and can't achieve for real.
Don’t discount headbutts too easily. Unless you have some specific medical condition which rules them out, they are generally quite usable.
It’s like any technique, you just have to learn it, practice it and drill it. The basic rule is to use a hard part of your head (your forehead) to impact on a softer part of theirs (nose etc). It has advantages in that it doesn’t have to be pinpoint accurate and often surprises people.
I tend to think that being shorter than your opponent helps too –as you are less likely accidentally clash foreheads. Geoff Thompson believes that it has an added surprise factor when a girl does it.
Sounds cool to me.
On a wider issue, I think that many martial artists seem to fall into a seminar blindness trap. They go to some pressure point seminar where some ‘Master’ demonstrates complex PP moves on willing non-resisting opponents in a sanitised environment. They then come away thinking how clever these moves are and believe that they can transpose them into a live situation.
But the other sticking point for me is one of expediency. Why go for a very clever PP move when you could more easily smash their face in with an elbow? Sophistication should not a determining factor in deciding which move to use in SD circumstances.
The point is seen , I have said this before and will say it again.
> " You have to hit a dime size location to use PP" - NO you do not.
> " you have to tap this one or rub that one to activate it" - No, yes that will activate it but so will smashing it with yor fore arm.
> "hitting this way will reverse the chi energy flow" No it does not
There comes down to when is it theory and when is it application. I fnd many of the KYUSHO seminar crowd makes the subject more than it needs to be. Suggesting details that while in theory make the technique better are not really required for it to be effective enough to do the job. RYUSHIKAN put it very well " KYUSHO BY NUMBERS" spend much of the seminars in awe of Light Touch KO, I refuse to discuss this as those who allow others to knock them out are foolish it is not safe. The more complicated they make it the more time it takes to explain and the more seminars YOU need to PAY for.
Agreed. What you then need to do is to take what you've learnt in a seminar and see if you can find ways of using it in a more realistic setting. I find that some techniques just don't work for me, but others work just great (at least once I've brought them in line with my core principles).
But of course, like you say, there's no need to give up simple techniques that work. I want everything I do to be simple to do, to make violent confrontation simpler and easier for me to deal with. As regards sophistication, someone once made a very pertinent point to me - techniques/strategies can be sophisticated but that doesn't necessarily make them complicated. In short, I want to avoid complicated techniques, but my simple techniques can have layers of sophistication built in to them.
That said, there's nout wrong with a good old-fashioned head-butt.
I don't find anything there to disagree with there. I prefer to keep things simple. Kyusho works, but some people do like to 'gild the lilly' somewhat.
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