Well it isn't like if I was to hit you on a PP that I would just stop you never stop until the threat is no longer a threat. Will I be on the point every time probably not, but knowing the angle and direction of the points and where they arejust gives me a little more of an advantage in a fight
I also train Pressure point fighting. I train under 2 instructors that train with Master Chris Thomas. While i am sligthly skeptical about no touch KO's I have personally done 20 or 30 pressure point knockouts and I am only a Brown Belt. These techniques work incredibly well and they are great to train women to help with the size disadvantages they face.
I hate to chime in here but I have used pressure points against a one handed lapel grab numerous times. What i would do is either hit Lung 6 (near the crease of the arm) or Large Intestine (sorry i dont remember the # on the outside of the arm) depending on which you hit you will 2 different reactions. If you hit lung you will bring buckle the arm and the bring the head straight down. If you hit Large intestine you will turn the body which will help put energy against the punch coming in. Both Lung and Large Intestine are Metal meridians Galbladder is a wood meridian if you follow the chinese medicine cycle of creation or for the martial artist cycle of destruction Metal destroys wood. Moving from lung or Large Intestine to Galbladder follows the cycle of destruction. The onr thing I want to say from my own experience with pressure points is the usually have Bio mechanical follow up. if i miss the PP in the crease of the arm and just hit the crease i still get a reaction if I hit the outside of the arm I still get a rection just not as big of a reaction. If i hit someone on the Galbaldder cluster ( which is the forehead) I can Knock them out. Lets say I missed the PP hitting someone in the forehead is disorienting anyway.
As my instructor is also a Shiatsu therapist, he slips a lot of PP knowledge into our Tang Soo Do. He mentions the cycle of destruction when he uses them, but I've not been able to take the time to learn this to any extent. He treats PP as an 'addition' to the art, and not a fighting system on its own - as I mentioned elsewhere, we have a member that shows no PP reaction (but he has joints you can lock ) The 'Lung 6' that Hawks mentioned does have the 'head-down & forward' reaction, but we followed it up with the same striking hand rotating from a knife-hand down on the arm to a knife-hand up just under the side of the jaw. No ideas of the PP names, but I do remember it was another of these 'metal cuts wood' situations. The two strikes done smoothly look like a very efficient 'response'. Shotokanwarrior: Sorry that I can't make this smiley SIZE=99
Well, here's one shiatsu therapist who happens to think that the whole 'metal cuts wood' thing is a pile of baloney when applied to martial arts. It is a complete and inappropriate misappropriation of ideas from Traditional Chinese Medicine. In my opinion that is. Mind, I've also been involved in some research which tends to confirm my opinion. Mike
Mike I have been training in pressure points for the last 4 years and while not a particualrily long time I have found that the cycle of destruction does work. I have always been a skeptic so it wasnt until I had people prove these things on me that I started to believe. For Jang Bong. What you were shown isnt the Cycle of Destruction, it is actually the Diurianl cycle. You are following a Lung strike with a strike to Stomach 5. Lung and Stomach are related to each other in Chinese Medicine. They are Yin/Yang to each other. I have seen plenty of knockouts with just these 2 points. Just for clarification NOT ALL pressure point knockouts actually involve knocking a person unconscious. The reason for the knockout or standing knockout is to relax the neck muscles so you can perform a "neck wrenching" technique. Why do you think we do so many staks to the hip? We actually have something between our hands.
Yo, Jang Bong! I agree 100%. And would you mind posting some of this research of yours...I'm interested. If it's not a big pain in the ass.
Well Lung five is not at the crease of the elbow, I find more and more Dillman followers getting the conceots very wrong. http://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupoints/lu_meridian.html Hawks- on any of the KO you have done has any of these folks been intent on attacking you or are they standing there waiting to be hit. I have grave issue with the whole just teach a women these " PALOR TRICKS ' and the size and strength issue goes away. They do not please read about Body Alarm Reaction it will explain why Light Touch KO are not very combat effective.
I have done KO techniques in both circumstances. I have done them in a free sparing situation and also in working on specific self defense situations. I will say that you are all probaly correct you wont use pressure points in sparing sport karate way there is no need. You dont want to hurt your oponent you just want to play tag. The first to touch 3 times wins thats not self defense. Have i ever been a bar and had someone grab my shirt and try to throw a punch absolutely have i ever had them step back into a ready stance and then attack me not in a million years. No offense to anyone but I have seen some of the "self defense " that is tought to women and children and it will NEVER work. I am going to teach an 8yr old girl to block a kick with her crossed arms and then step in and hit me in throat. This will NEVER work on multiple levels. I dont understand the concept of us teahcing women "parlor tricks" while alot (NOT ALL) dojos teach women self defense that will get them hurt.
I was typing very fast and I ment LUNG 6 is not in the crease LUNG 5 is, I HATE MY BOSS HE WANTS ME TO WORK INSTEAD OF THIS. There seems to be many schools who start KYU ranks on these concepts well before the should and they concern too much on the points and, elements , yinyang, quadrant and not how to create the opning and thje proper body postion to achieve the angles and openings needed. I will always have issue with the use of Light Force KO right out of the gate when attacked Body Alarm Reaction will hinder the use of many strikes and even small joint manipulation. This will cause the technique to fail when need most.
Kempocos Mayube because I started learning PP and Tuite principles early on I prefer it. IMO at some time students need to find "their art" in the martial arts otherwise they will always be just a Karate student instead of a martial artist. I also believe all of our self defense is found in our Kata and one of things that helped me was to actually apply real technique to our Kata movements. I dont know about light touch KO's i do know that either rubbing or striking a point has been effective for me. I think I should be able to do this with minimal force but I have yet to put it to the test. I'm sure there will be some we dont believe me but i did show our higher ranking kids one simple KO technique and I allowed 4 different kids to try this on me. 3 out of the 4 were able to get a good reaction and I REFUSE to go down for anyone. I believe the kids need to learn and me giving them the technique doesnt help. If i show them something and they dont get it in the dojo how can let them out on the street with a technique they think works but actually doesnt. I hold the resposibility my instructors give me teaching some of the lower ranks very high. I want them to be the best but I also want them to be safe.
Two points spring to mind. 1. No therapist I know, and no book on TCM I've read, actually calls it the 'cycle of destruction'. Its called the control cycle. I could be wrong but I suspect it is a name that was first used by a famous American pressure points teacher. 2. And this is the important point.....yes the cycle of 'destruction' can work. But so can the creative cycle. And in fact so can any cycle that you can think of that links the five elements. So the idea's about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. Basically it don't really matter what points you touch or hit before you wallop GB20. GB20's still going to work anyway. But don't take my word for it. Make your own mind up. Have a read of some of the controlled studies conducted here.... http://www.ussu.net/karatejutsu/articles.htm The page can be a little slow to load, but its worth the wait. Mike
A quick caveat (sp?) on almost anything I post. I am a humble student who still feels he is in a new environment - and the brain can slow down in its absorbtion ability towards the end of a lesson For any misunderstood or mis-quoted infromation I appologise to my teacher and fellow MAP members. In teaching computing, I've used ideas and analogies that can allow a beginner to grasp a concept - even though I know that I could pick holes in my own analogy. I can see how one of my students could (in all innocence :Angel: ) quote me, and another I.T. bod could come up with a judgement of 'baloney'. If that is the case here, then I'm sorry. Peace.
while you are right to a certain degree, the knockouts (when I say knockouts here I am speaking of Light touch) will be effective on more people when you follow the creative cycle, the destructive cycle, diurnal cycle, or the hit them on the same point three times in a row I could keep going but the point is this if the sequence of hits falls into more than one of these, than the likely hood of the technique working goes up. If you hit what presents itself you will follow these situations. And for a little addition to your study George Dillman will tell you that any arm point will set up any head point. When the different cycles become important is when you are doing a body KO.
HAWKS, If you have only trained in the DILLMAN linage on KYUSHO and TUITE you should check out other linages such as Sieyu Oyata's, He is the one who Dillamn spent about a year training with at seminars and some classes to learn his PP concepts. The version of RYUKYU KEMPO they use is not the same as Dillamn teachs. In fact Oyata changed his styles name once Dillman started the seminar circuit, here is a link to a site check for a dojo near you. You have nothing to lose and only knowledge to gain. WWW.KUSHU.COM I always have been told that the TCM theory should only be 10 % of your training up until shodan then maybe up to 25 % . Then that training shold be 1/3 theory and 2/3 drillling the techinques.
By the sounds of it, that's a claim with quite a lot of controversy surrounding it. That might well be a very bad indication
"Quote: Originally Posted by kempocos HAWKS, If you have only trained in the DILLMAN linage on KYUSHO and TUITE you should check out other linages such as Sieyu Oyata's, He is the one who Dillamn spent about a year training with at seminars and some classes to learn his PP concepts. By the sounds of it, that's a claim with quite a lot of controversy surrounding it." Yes, and remember that the Dillman linage has done alot of research and testing through the years. I may not agree with many of thier concepts that I have been exposed to but the time in research needs to be acknowledged Hawks - I myself always looks to add information, since the concepts discussed are not style specfic each person must take a hard look to see if they can make use of the information within thier own personal style of fighting not thier schools style.
I just want to add a comment: Regardless of how you hit the pressure points or how effective they are, over use of pressure points in training can lead to health problems. If you are hitting the marks, the target should feel something. If you continue to hit these marks over and over again in drills or sparring, it can really mess up your target's body, and vica versa. Train, accuracy with speed and power, but in all this talk I have not read much about limits. There are some points that you don't want to hit more than three times in two weeks, etc. Know the limits and training should reflect this. Use protective padding when appropriate so you can hit with accuracy and power, and go slower with less power to learn the flow of the techniques, etc. Train pressure point responsibly. It isn't rocket science, it is a human body we are talking about.
Like where? And who actually wants to use a light touch KO? What's wrong with the humble sucker punch???