Power generation

I'm curious to how the rest of you generate power for your hand ,elbow and knee techniques.

Cho's TKD bases their punching techniques on boxing. The fighting stance is similar to a boxing/kickboxing stance, thus the punching techniques follow similar principles as boxing(Apparently this was influenced by Cho's three years as a boxer). Elbow techniques are thrown using the same body mechanics as a hook, but you connect with an elbow instead. For a vertical elbow strike, the mechanics are that of a uppercut. Power generation wise, imo, is okay at best.

Now the knee techniques. The movement for a vertical knee is the same as a front kick, but the foot is not snapped out, instead the knee is driven straight up. Back leg this is fine, front leg, not good. Lastly, the horizontal knee. The best way to describe this is a roundhouse/turning kick chamber position brought into place with force. Basically, its pants. If you were in a clinch, it could be useful as you could put more strength into it and not fall over. But that's too many 'ifs' for my liking.

Criticisms(constructive now) would also be welcome.

 

The ITF has the Theory of Power, mostly though (when/if I need to generate power - not very often frankly, sparring I do is light) I just get weight behind everything, twist & swing in a rather wild fashion

One thing I don't see done where I train now, that I learnt when I first trained, so might be uncommon, is to do with turning kicks, & also applies to horizontal knee (which isn't even taught where I train now), & is to turn the body into the kick.

So, if I do a turning kick with the right leg, I swing the right leg & hip from right to left, but twist my upper body from left to right (to a degree anyway). If I remember right, & this is from the TAGB school I went to for a few years 20 odd years ago, that was to help generate power, & also has the side effect of countering any inclination to lean backward when kicking.

It seem to make my kick whip in a bit faster, but also (I think) makes it harder to get it up above chest height ... but then, that may be a flexibility issue, plus, my turning kick is something I have doubts about (rather technical, slow, not high enough, too ballistic, uncontrolled, the list goes on).

 

Yes a turning kick is not a turning kick if you do not turn your whole bOdy, from the toes up to your head. Pivoting on the non-kicking foot is key. The instructions in the Encyclopedia lay this out.
Generally speaking & when you have the opportunity, one must utilize more of their body & move it as fast as possible, accelerating along the way in the delivery if one wishes to produce more power.
Are not all students of TKD taught this?
If not, why not?

 

This is a common mis-perception.
The ITF ToP, Pre-dates the ITF which was formed in Seoul, south Korea in 1966. this is simply the TKD ToP. The TKD ToP appeared in written form by 1965, when most in SK were still doing Korean karate & Korean martial sportmthey called Taesoodo. The TKD ToP originally had 4 aspects or factors. It later expanded to 5 & then the present 6 factors.
So while the TKD governed by the ITF does indeed have a written ToP, it is simply TKD's ToP that not all TKD groups know, embrace or teach.

I often wonder how other schools teach power generation & if they have an actual written ToP.

 

From the hip

Stuart

 

Is this just what he has told you? Or are you able to competently tell that these are essentially boxing punches? It is possible (I can't really tell from behind a computer screen) that he is trying to make it boxing like, but his technique may be poor, it may even look like boxing to someone who hasn't done boxing, but some underlying principles are off..?

I would throw an elbow with the technique resembling a cross rather than a hook, that is for hitting to the front of the face.

I would say that I don't like the technique for your front kick or your knee. When we do front kick; we drive the forward and up, with quite a lot of hip action. Same with the knee. If you aren't moving your feet, your front knee is essentially at it's effective range where it is, so unless your opponent is standing directly over your knee, it's not going to have much power. Instead you should be moving your back foot prior to doing a front knee, IMO.

I don't know if this is how you roundhouse, but I'm guessing you pivot your support foot as your kicking foot is already in the air? That technique is great for taekwondo sparring, but not much else. If you want decent power and stability with your horizontal knee or even a roundhouse kick, you will need to commit a mortal sin: pre-step with your front foot. If you turn the supporting foot out before you kick you'll likely have good power without falling over.

Also, if you're in knee range, why not grab onto your opponent for extra power and stability?

As to the original question about I generate power:
I do so using my feet, knees, hips, shoulders, elbow, and everything in between. Oh and timing.

 

stuartA has it right, and its not just limited to TKD but all striking arts - from the legs rotating through the hips. Sure there's individual techniques where the aim isn't necessarily for fulll power and the rotation of the hips may be taken out or there may be others where the hip is pushed rather than rotated etc. but in most cases the hips are the key.

 

Could you be a little more precise? From what I gathered from previous threads you train in an ITF based form of TKD. ITF has two fighting stances in the syllabus, side facing(more tournament styled) and 'half side' facing. My knowledge of ITF TKD is purely from training in a ITF school, I did not learn or interact with the syllabus at all(was allowed to train in Cho's) so this is just my own observation, correct me if I'm wrong. I suppose my original post could be reworded to "Are your punching mechanics, due to your organisation's 'syllabus fighting stance', based on something else than boxing mechanics?".

My other quires on elbow and knee techniques are from my own opinion/experience that they are ignored or just glossed over. Hence they are not taught correctly or understood. Since I am most comfortable at a closer range, these techniques are not something I should ignore(nor grappling, but that's another subject).

It is considered 'common knowledge' of Cho's martial career by writings on the man. I never said that they were boxing punches, just that the punching is based on boxing mechanics. It can not be 100% similar since kicking techniques must be used off the fighting stance. Some compromises have to be made somewhere. I couldn't comment on the quality of the techniques any more than that since I have only boxed/kickboxed for a short time and my punching experience is mainly from TKD.

That is another 'syllabus' variation. We tend to use a head grab with the technique. I didn't mention it because I wanted to stick to pure striking. But it is a good suggestion, definitely worth experimenting with.

Indeed, my kicks were completely lacking in 'hip'. It wasn't until I was training with an WTF affiliated school until I realised this. Would you lean *sightly* back for the knee(both legs)?

Good points on differentiating with the techniques. I've come across the pre-step before in kickboxing, perhaps I may go back and rethink about including it. Yes, it slows down your foot work slightly, however I don't like throwing too many kicks(unless there's a good chance for contact) so it may work quite well.

Couple of reasons. First would be the rule set(pesky thing). Secondly, and more importantly I am not proficient in stand up grappling at all so moving into a range which would put me at a disadvantage may not be the best idea(really need to work on that).

In your own training do you work on drills from this distance, and what do they consist of?

Thanks for the input. I'm interested in your own experience in Cho's Master Betty. You had said in my first thread on this site that you had issues with how the elbow and knee techniques were being taught. What was the problem? Was it simply just striking with the arm/leg and not using body weight, etc?

 

I wasn't questioning whether he had boxed, just how good his instruction in boxing.

I suppose if I was doing a knee without grabbing I might, it would accentuate the 'hip', but normally with the grapple, i would be getting closer to the opponent, not further away.

What is the ruleset? Cho's own?
If you're kneeing someone, you are practically already in that range, I see knees as not being a hit and run technique.

 

Well I didn't notice the difference completely at first due to the fact that I simply didn't have anything to compare it with. After I had spent a little time at thai boxing it became immediately apparent that every single one of the high ranking members of AIMAA don't know how to use these kinds of technique. They've never had any sort of real instruction on it as far as I could see - maybe they learned it at AIMAA summer camp or something and then after that they're primarily self taught.

What compounds it for me is, as you briefly mentioned, ruleset. When they spar they don't spar with elbows, clinch, knees, low kicks, catching kicks etc. nor do most AIMAA schools I've seen even spar in a full contact environment. Due to this, all they're really doing is making air shapes with little to no experience and understanding of how the techniques actually work, what the goal is with each technique, or how and when to use it. If you don't practice a technique in sparring, then you might as well stop practicing it full stop.

Put bluntly, there wasn't any one single technique flaw but simply that everyone is essentially self taught, with all the pit falls that implies and the kind of elbows and knees I was seeing from the so called masters of the school were worse than I would expect from one of my students after 6 months of training. Indeed, as I said on another thread, I have my first pro fighter fighting later this month and he's only been training for around 8 months max and I'd put my money on him up against any of the high ranking instructors in AIMAA in the UK.

 

If you're close enough to knee, you're close enough to clinch. And the hip should always be accentuated or your simply limiting you range, power, balance and speed.

 

Not exactly. I left the ITF moons ago. I train/teach Ch'ang hon TKD.. I utilize both hip twist and the old (simple) sine wave of dropping into techniques, not the newer bouncy bouncy version.

Are you refering to tournament fighting? AFAIA people can fight in any stance they want, neither are labelled 'fighting stances'. However, for light continuous (the common format) most opt for side on or half side on a you say. We also do traditional sparring, which isnt competition orientated and as the contact is heavier, and more techniques are allowed, a more full on position is optimal. However, you simply refered to generating power, and basically the hip rotates the body and thus a fast hip rotation creates torque and thus power - for other techniques theres the up/down variations (of the hip), kinetic linking etc. etc. but the hip is central to it all.

Your initial post simply asked about how others generate power - for sparring competition, full power isnt required as its not full contact, for destruction and other areas of fighting it is and for me, the hip is the best way to generate it.

Meaning you trained there, but didnt train it and did your own thing? Weird!!

To which i would answer... it depends on what Im doing, but the mechanics arnt really based on stances per se, but hip movement/thrust with additional aiding from the legs etc. depending on what technique Im doing!

Stuart

 

I don't know if you're trying to agree with me or correct me here, but that is what I was saying.

I disagree, the hip should always be heavily utilised, but whether or not it should be accentuated by leaning back is something different entirely. If you use your grip and body positioning properly, I think you will have sufficiently powerful knee go to the right place while maintaining a defensive position, rather than leaning back.

 

'tis true of all martial arts I think.
When I did BJJ "moving your hips" was always a good thing to try or look at if you were stuck, couldn't escape, couldn't nail a sub etc.

 

I wasn't sure of your question, apologies. I don't know, I have never trained under him so I couldn't say. The more important thing is how this filters down to his organisation's teachers. The benefit of his boxing experience is not so clear at that level.

Yes. However Cho's TKD does not have its own ruleset. ITF or kickboxing rulesets would be the most common at AIMAA tournaments.

It is hard to argue otherwise, knees and elbows are only practised in lines or at/for gradings. Cross training is seemingly the answer for developing proper technique.

Sorry about that. Do you utilise the sine wave in sparring? That would be interesting. I'm sure there's more information lurking on the net(on the hip twist and the old sine wave), I'll have a look later.

No. I was just referring to the ITF syllabus, ie: what the instructor was drilling the class with. Traditional sparring? I didn't think there was such a distinction. Is it similar to a Kyokushin ruleset, no pads or strikes to the head?

So from your understanding, all TKD techniques begin in the hip. Taking a right cross as an example. You begin by squaring the hip and rolling it inward to the left. Simultaneously your right foot pivots and the shoulder moves forward, and the punch follows. Is this correct?

Honestly I did not have sparring in mind, it was a more general question.

Yeah, I'm such a die-hard TKD politician. It was during university, and unless the syllabus clashed with my own(as it did with traditional techniques and patterns, then I practiced by myself), I followed along. There aren't that many differences between the schools IMO, so there wasn't a problem. Since I was still grading with my original school(Cho's) in my home town there wasn't a reason for me to study the ITF syllabus in any great detail, hence my very vague understanding of it.

Then would it be incorrect to say that TKD does not have it's own 'native' power generation for hand mechanics?

Hmm, perhaps I better lurk a bit more in the karate forum and look what the Shotokan practitioners think on the subject. It may bring some inspiration.

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

http://www.taekwondo-itf.ch/THEORY OF POWER.pdf

this is from the condensed encyclopedia by gen choi

 

accentuating the hip doesnt mean leaning back, it simply means pushing the hip fully into a strike. If you need to lean back to push the hip forward or to the side to rotate it then somethings wrong somewhere.

 

Do you read what you are quoting before you respond, trollface? I didn't say you needed to do either of those things. And what you are calling 'accentuating the hip' I just call utilising the hip and consider accentuating something else.

 

I do indeed. you said you consider emphasising the hip to be leaning back in order to push it out more. That's not emphasising a movement, that's just bad technique.