[Politics] People voted Conservative?!?!?!

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Moosey, Jun 5, 2009.

  1. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    OK, so this is what the UK local council elections left our country looking like:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/local-election-results-map-2009

    This means that people actually turned out across the country and said "I've had enough of the surreptitious right wing economics of the New Labour party, what I want is an out-and-out right-wing party running my neighbourhood".

    I just don't get it! In a decade when Americans in their droves turned out for one of the more progressive presidents that their nation's produced, Britain has turned out for "the other corrupt party" - and the one that pioneered the freemarket economic system that caused the current financial crisis. The reason Blair (and as a result Brown) screwed up this country is by emulating Margaret Thatcher's economic policy of privatisation and market self-regulation. Why did Margaret Thatcher do it? Because that's the job of a Conservative party politician - That's what they do!

    Someone explain to me why these people are popular enough to paint the country blue in the local council elections?
     
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Cos we're stupid.

    Cameron has Blaired the Tory party. He's told all the old elitist toffs to keep their mouths shut and gone and done a Tony and when I look at Brown all I see is a slightly broader shouldered version of John Major. It's 1997 all over again, but in reverse.

    Of course nothing has really changed under the surface and I'm sure that when we're a Tory country again and inheritance tax has been scrapped, there is a universal 30% income tax rate and the NHS has collapsed due to a lack of public funding we'll look back and wonder 'Where did Gordon go? Sure, he was a pretty boring sort, but he was well meaning and at least he wasn't born with a silver spoon wedged up his a...'.

    I expected the local results to be bad, but holy Mary mother of Spandau Ballet they're dire for Labour. Labour councillors are gonna be awfully lonely for the foreseeable future.

    I don't think Labour have done a good job over the last 2/3 years, but I dont for a second think that the Tories would have handled any of the problems better.

    Seriously looking at emigrating, I hear Vancouver is nice.
     
  3. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Economy aside, that was enough of a reason.
    Knee-jerk to the recent corruption through expenses scandal. Even though everyone was involved the one's in power always bear the brunt.
    12 months is a long time if he can hold office.
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    no matter what party gets in you still end up being governed by politicians

    we are all doomed.


    koyo
     
  5. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Part of me hopes he stands down. I think he's a smart guy with the intelligence to think us out of this mess but he lacks the emotional intelligence to convey that to the public, so the perception is that he doesn't know what's going on. Blair and to a lesser extent Cameron probably dont know what's going on, but they can convey a pile of empathy, you listen to them speak and it's easy to believe that they have the problems in hand. If Blair or Cameron said 'We have a plan, we're going to be ok' then people instinctively believe them, but when Brown says it I see Baldrick and his cunning plans.

    God we're in a mess. We desperately need an Obama, smart and emotionally intelligent.
     
  6. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    That sucks something immense. If people vote camreon into power in the generals they deserve a swift fish slap
     
  7. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Cameron smiles. Brown grimaces.

    The Tories emotionally blackmail you - 'we were evil once, but we have the new fluffy, cuddly right wing neo-liberal economics now! Vote for us or we'll shoot some bunnies'

    And Labour are becoming more and more morally bankrupt. And as a card carrying Labour member (I always hoped for a return to the good old days, but I don't see that happening soon) that's not something I say lightly.

    Labour will lose the general election and they deserve to. Not that the Tories deserve to win anything, ever, but they will be at the right place at the right time, unfortunately.
     
  8. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Gordon Brown reminds me of an old VW Golf advert from the 1980's where the guy puts all his money on red and it comes up black & he marries a sex kitten just as she turns into a cat.
     
  9. BigBoss

    BigBoss This is me, seriously.

    Well what is the alternative, lib dem!?!? Because of first past the post the only 2 parties with any chance at all are Tory and Labour. The problem is their economic policies have became so close that there is no great difference between them. So I guess people think, well with have to live with neo-liberal economics no matter what. So they vote Tory cos they are very unhappy with Labour.

    BTW Moosey this thread needs a [POLITICS] tag! http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10634953#post10634953
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2009
  10. leafhound

    leafhound New Member

    I never thought David Cameron would push in front of Labour, just goes to show I over estimate the political acumen of the average moron voter.

    If Cameron gets in I think I'll be off. Can't stand him!
     
  11. BigBoss

    BigBoss This is me, seriously.

    Have you been watching the news or following politics at all in the last 6 months!?

    Cameron has been well ahead of Brown in all the polls for along time. These council victories are no surprise, everyone was predicting a big labour loss, even the labour party themselves had accepted defeat and were just doing their best to limit the losses. Perhaps the only surprising thing about these results is that the Tory managed to beat Lib Dem in places like the south west.

    Btw, I'm not a Tory and will probably be voting Lib Dem at the next general election, but I have met David Cameron and he actually comes across as a nice guy and is a good public speaker and charismatic (especially when you compare him to Brown) so it is easy to why people are won over by him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2009
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Cameron epitomises soap box politics. I don't actually know many Tory policies and I doubt most of the people voting for them do either.

    If Brown does stick through the the election and doesn't turn around Labours fortunes at all, then it is perfectly possible that the Lib Dems could sneak ahead. There are a lot of people (like me) who were hardcore Labour supporters and who can't bring themselves to vote Tory. The Lib Dems are the only serious option left.
     
  13. BigBoss

    BigBoss This is me, seriously.

    On the face of it that does seem a possiblity, however just looking at the council results we see Lib Dem actually losing to Conservative. Firstly the first past the post system means that even if there is quite a large increase in total vote share to Lib Dem this will still only translate as one 2 or 3 more seats in the commons. Secondly many people are turned off by politics at the moment and in the past Lib Dem used to be a good protest vote but as we have seen from the country council elections (and as I am sure we will see from the EU elections) record numbers of people are voting for alternative parties like UKIP, BNP and Greens. I think this is where Lib Dem are going to lose quite a few votes to, and again with the FPTP systems these votes are effectively going to be wasted and wont result in any change of seats in the commons.

    Lib Dem currently have 62 seats in the commons I would put money on (based on polls, council election results and the mathematics of FPTP), at the very best, them ending up with 65 seats. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they remained on 62 or maybe got 1 more. Tory are going to win, with a majority, but it wont be big, 25-30 seats.
     
  14. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Council results are not good for estimating gains in local elections. People might be willing to vote for the smaller parties in local elections but in national elections people tend to be more wary.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see a very big jump in Lib Dem MPs next year, regardless of who wins overall. Nick Clegg has been very impressive and I dont think he has been getting the due amount of attention from the press so far. Hopefully that will change as we approach an election year.
     
  15. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Labour need to (and will) loose the next general election, take a back seat, make Miliband the new leader and then try again. Removing Brown at the moment simply won't save the party, and I'd hate to have a better leader of a party that needs a wake up call.

    I'd prefer the Liberal Democrats, but I'd settle for a Conservative win. I don't have any problem with Cameron.

    Can you cite the Conservative policy of an unregulated market?
     
  16. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I fear I cannot, but I can refer you to plenty of material about Mrs Thatcher on the web which makes it clear that this was her preference as leader http://www.history-ontheweb.co.uk/concepts/thatcherism93.htm and examples of industries removed from government control to be regulated by market forces by the conservatives when they were last in power http://pa.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/51/2/209

    Are you asking in order to correct me on the current Conservative party's economic policies? If so, please go ahead as I'd be interested to hear an informed summary of where they stand right now.
     
  17. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    The conservatives are certainly still neo-liberal, free market orientated, conservative policy:

    Good old Tories. Looking out for number one.

    Furthermore - as for Tory welfare policies

    They're exactly the same as New Labour's.

    Blue Labour Vs New Labour. At this point, you could make more difference by spoiling your ballot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2009
  18. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    I take it you were a fan of Tory Blair then?
     
  19. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Okay but then that is about twenty-year old Conservative policy, not necessarily a policy of the current state of the party.

    Although I'm not a Tory, I guess I find it annoying when the party as it stands today is criticised based on previous incarnations of the party. They are not the same party, and I have no reason to assume any deception on their part.

    Here's what they propose to do: http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Economy.aspx

    The bit in bold (my emphasis) is something I'd certainly support. In their economic policy document they announce that "For the first time in Britain, we will create a new Office for Budget Responsibility to assess independently the sustainability of the public finances and hold the Government to account." They will "Task the new Office for Budget Responsibility with a full, independent audit of the nation’s debts, including all the liabilities hidden off balance sheet. They will also give the Bank of England a greater role in market oversight.

    In some ways more than others. He's certainly better than Brown.
     
  20. Martial novice

    Martial novice Valued Member

    Sorry Moosey I don't agree with your outlook. What has happened in the UK is very similar to the US, a public disappointed with the government has voted for 'the other major party'. America didn't vote in a minor party on a landslide, they have a 2 party system, just as we do. Personally I cast a protest vote for the Greens, but the only way to vote in a way likely to have a dmeonstrable effect is to vote for the 'other' of the two main parties.

    Also, just to clarify, both are really going for the same audience anyway. From post war to 1979 the main effort of each party was to moblise their supporters. There was a strong left and right base (socialist and free market respectively). That all changed when Thatcher used the Saatchi and Saatchi PR company to advertise and it became a competition to steal the middle ground. Left wing labour lay dead in the water until 2 things happened. The Conservative government got so bad people were desperate for change, and New Labour showed it could appeal to the centre ground not just the traditional union socialists. I actually used to be a paid up member of the Labour Party until the day they put Gordon Brown in charge because I'd seen all the things he'd done over 10 years to mess up the economy while everyone was saying what a good job he's done. The problem was that then, as now, there is no obvious replacement. No senior Labour politician will want to take over now because the party will probably lose the next election and that leader will be blamed and ousted, like Hague, Duncan Smith, or Howard when the Tories were down. It makes more sense for them to take over AFTER losing an election to work towards the next one.

    Incidentally, the centre ground in the UK is to the left of the American centre, so the Tories are not dissimilar in economic approach to the Democrats.

    Finally, as has been mentioned, Council elections do not accurately reflect general elections, and are often used as a protest vote. Voting for Tory councillors sends a message of dissatisfaction without risking a Tory government. However, Cameron is very charismatic, and that can be persuasive. After Blair people were happy for a couple of months with someone they thought was competent but didn't have a great image. However if you're not competent...

    [sorry for the long post, but with a politics degree I finally have something I know about to say on MAP!!]
     

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