Right I've got my plate full at the moment MA wise but I'll try to draw up a mail to Mr February this week and see what comes of it. Just out of interest more than anything else, I'm not out to debunk Piper or anything like that. Take care.
It's been fun... And Don Roley's claims are just that I haven't been on the forums in years. It was fun taking this opportunity to make fun and generally behave like typical forum posers. If you hated my commentary and attitude, then that's you in the mirror. You know who you are. Don Roley - you still haven't provided a name. Without specifics your claims are baseless. So you were on Marc Mac young's forum? We know how well that went... I believe many people abandoned it for various reasons. He's made similar claims to your own, thus I have invited him to the seminar personally. I doubt he'll show. As for the seminar - you are going to have to send money by PayPal. I bet you're dying to learn more. And by the way, the original emails from Mac Young back in the day are compelling reading. I might put them online sometime. What you say below is accurate, with one line of personal opinion I removed. The point of it is? It fails to answer the claims you made earlier. South Africa has the highest police mortality rate in the world for a country that is not at war, by the way. Ten years we were teaching people accurate South African criminal behaviour to prevent them from becoming victims. Ten years later, we're doing the same. What a change. Evidence, Don Roley. Who did you train with? Don't bother, you would have filled in the details if you had them. This is me signing off.
Dean, I can tell you're a good guy. Many of you are. I started well, and then decided to copy the same snide attitude I have experienced online over the years - mostly as an uninvolved reader of what people have said about something they're largely ignorant of, yet post copiously on forums about it. So many feel entitled to adopt that approach - here no less than other forums. Why should I restrict myself to any less? Besides, I had fun taking pot shots - as do you all. I believe everyone became uncomfortable when I decided to adopt the same posture, after which we saw "Let's behave like adults". There are some genuine questions - however there are better ways of discovering answers than these forums, and you're aware of what happens on forums, so don't repeat the same. Here's a thought. In more than a decade of working with criminals, police and victims, we have failed to discover evidence for knife stripping, or the disarms you see so copiously in DVDs and seminars. None. Do we learn these theoretical teachings, or do we follow what we observe, the evidence that knife disarms are largely an accidental phenomenon? However, whom will we offend if we claim that there is no evidence of this? Who's reputation and who's income is affected, who's claims are brought into question if we state that we see no evidence of this within a prolific knife culture? We have half the population of the Philippines, and several times their murder rate - as I recall from the UN world crime report I used to quote in my seminars. South Africa is a knife culture like no other, but somehow the thugs who use knives fail to discover these martial arts principles that are so vital. That begs the question why. But raising the questions does seriously offend people. Why, I don't know. But they know who they are.
I was gonna butt out here 'cos the thread was heading south fast - but I'd like to discuss this first. This is a discussion forum. We are here to a) learn from those more knowledgeable, b) enlighten those who have less understanding than ourselves, and c) waste time when we should be working. If a student asked me a question about my chosen arts, I would answer it to the best of my ability and the answer would be one that I have previously addressed and am happy in my heart with. I certainly wouldn't give an answer I was 50/50 about. If I was less than certain about my answer, I would look to my peers and discuss witht them. However, I WOULD give an answer. As a practitioner and a student of my teacher, I feel obligated to respond honestly. This relates to public forums too. If someone has a genuine query, I will respond - not point them at Google to discover for themselves. This ain't ego. It is to facilitate learning. We don't need prospective students to stand in the rain for three days and three nights. Just turning up and training hard is good enough for me. If you have answers, give them - or find them. If you don't, just point us at Google. Apologies for any spelling errors in this post. I typed it up on my mobile phone.
Rubbish, SA is not a knife culture like no other. In fact SA knife culture very closely mirrors the Glasgow knife culture. Our knife crime statistics aren't far off Jo'burg. Guess what the criminal element in Glasgow don't know jack about martial arts principles. The guy who almost took my eye didn't know jack about martial principles. The truth is, usually you don't even know an attack is coming or that they even have a knife before you get stabbed. If you are claiming to base your art on some sort of criminal martial art you are pretty much full of crap. Criminals rely in strength, aggression, speed and very little else. Technical teaching in a criminal underworld is simply nonsense. Piper system is using the old "criminal" brand to sell as system. Heard it a hundred times by a hundred people. Oh by the way Lloyd, my name is Dave Britten. The Bear.
Hey Bear you missed out sneak attacks and multiple assailants. Gotta love people who create "systems" that deal with the unexpected and ever changing lunacy of street attacks. Researching must have been fun. Walk into a Glasgow pub and ask any of the nutcases "Want to show me your knife trechniques?" I could name a couple of knife fighters who were cowardly little creeps that could not fight sleep yet had people afraid of them. Nothing to do with martial arts training. Too may people out there with something to sell. below the "martial art" of the razor in a Glasgow street.
Yeah Koyo, the key word is sell. Not share or accompany BUT sell. This has nothing to do with Martial Arts; this has everything to do with defense of a brand. The chaps defending the Piper system are here to defend their brand. They are using an aggressive marketing strategy of "criminal" or "Military" association and bullying tactics. I've seen it with many fledging MA brands. The Bear.
A few pages ago you were saying that you had no economic interest in the matter. Now you are obviously trying to take people for cash. But as I said, I have interest in taking the time or paying the money to learn any more about a system that is useless for self defense. I need something I could possibly use if the other guy pulls out something like a tire iron, not something only suited for ambushing ex- girlfriends and making them die a horrible death. If I do need to take out someone unarmed, I will use the methods the yakuza use that are simpler, but have a proven success rate. I have learned enough to see the flaws and have a good chance of taking advantage of them. Since it can't be used to defend oneself, and the chances of anyone having to face it is slim to none, there is no reason to bother. If you think you can shut up those that point out your systems flaws by ordering them to either pay you money or stop posting, I think the mods here might have a word with you. Your tactic is one that a lot of internet frauds use to try to silence others. It does not work to convince people that the critics are indeed trying to hide unless you are talking about real kool aide drinkers.
Not sure where I heard this so please bear with me but aren't those methods supposedly based around the feudal aiuchi method used by women?
No. There are examples of people lying, but I do believe that they are the minority. The sad thing about the above is that you are admitting that Nigel and Lloyd lied and are trying to pull everyone down to their level instead of giving honest reasons why they should be listened to. In post 108 you tried to say that despite their lies, people should train with them because of the effectiveness of what they do. Others have pointed out that there really is no proven effectiveness. Doing stuff in a dojo under controlled conditions is far different from a situation where people die. Think of this, if someone lies about something in order to get you to give them money, are they going to present the honest truth about things like its problems and limitations? Back on the first page you admitted that piper is something made up and is not some sort of criminal art or descended from Zulu fighting. Yet that is what Lloyd has tried to convince people in this thread. Yes a lot of people get killed in SA and the criminals probably use the same ice pick grip that Zulu warriors and Anthony Perkins used. Polar Bear and Koyo just pointed out that there is nothing more than that. The fancy moves, throwing the knife from one hand to another and agitating like a washing machine all seem to be things thrown in to take the simple act of sticking the pointy end of a sharpened piece of metal in the other guy into something that people are now lining up to pay Lloyd how to do. None of these add ons and bling bling has ever been used to make another person bleed. How can you say it is effective and you are not being fooled by the controlled conditions they set up even with sparring? Now if you are talking about yakuza methods, there are plenty of examples of people meeting their end by them. An enraged gangster went to a press conference after the gassing of the Tokyo subway and killed the Aum Supreme Truth minister of information before any of the reporters could step in and help. He then calmly asked to be taken into custody. That is not the only case. But where are the examples of piper being used? Note that I am not talking about people on the street of SA being killed by knives, we both seem to admit that those cases are not examples of piper. So how do you know? How do you suspect? To a certain extent you have to trust the honesty of your teacher to tell you all the bad with the good. And you have just admitted that Nigel and Lloyd seem to be lying in order to get cash out of others.
Yep. Same problem as piper in that if the other person has any sort of weapon at all you are going down. But it is simpler with a longer track record.
This section was all you needed to post. Since you didnt answer the previous question about whether it was NLP modelling or another kind of modelling, and considering you work in NLP, that you used to create 'Piper' system, we can extrapolate that you Worked with criminals, police and victims using NLP modeling to create piper, For those interested NLP modeling http://www.inspiritive.com.au/talent.htm Which essentially boils down to spending time with someone, and trying to copy what they did, the website wentions that you used interviews to model their skill. ''Gangsters and convicts in Cape Town do not acknowledge a preexisting system of knife combat - in all our interviews they are unaware of such a thing, and they will have no knowledge of a Piper System because it is our creation.'' http://www.pipersystem.com/about.html Now since we can assume no-one in Piper has attacked someone with a knife using the setups of a criminal, then we can predict that whatever models are created through training, cannot be verified., especially as they only use live knives all the time, so no realistic force on force training would be possable. Theres a nice overview of the pseudeoscience of NLP here: http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html Edit: From here: http://www.urbanshield.za.net/ ''He, together with Lloyd De Jongh and the input of an international panel of experts, has created a complete criminal robbery/assault/combat syllabus based on years of firsthand experience, interviews, observation and direct instruction. He has also learned the criminal street/prison knife method, called the Piper System. Together with Lloyd De Jongh and Erik Petermann it has developed it into a complete syllabus teaching how knives and other weapons are actually used in this country today. Having this knowledge of actual criminal methods learned from criminals and those who have dealt with them he and Lloyd have spent 5 years refining their material, comparing what is taught as self defence with what what actually happens to victims of crimes, demonstrating the flaws, misunderstandings, oversights and myths surrounding the issues of crime and personal safety. '' So which is it is ''a Piper System because it is our creation'' or ''He has also learned the criminal street/prison knife method, called the Piper System'' Your statements are internally inconsistant, and your defensiveness over sharing your research methodology brings into question how rigorous your research was/is. And your attempts to smear other people as the source of your bad attitude is disingenuous. Also a very interesting post here: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic....sid=3f263d729d16d9765527f5bd5f460a85&start=15 ''The second crack appeared when upon reviewing the tape my friends and I -- who incidentally have just a little bit of experience with people trying to play show and tell with our vital organs -- began to come up with counters to the displayed knife attacks. Now mind you, at the request of those who had contacted my about this "new" fighting system, I duped and forwarded the demo tape to some people who are...well, let me just say they're some serious pieces of real estate. In other words, these guys aren't your normal Tuesday and Thursday night martial artists. Their response was, in essence, "That's pretty damned scary. You'd just have to kill the S.O.B." Now that is not a technique, but rather a strategic response. As professional killers they recognized when it was time to go back to work. What they also recognized, however, was that while what they were viewing was horribly -- and I do mean horribly -- effective on offense, it was weak defensively. In short, it wasn't so much a "fighting" style, but instead it was a murdering/torturing one. (One that would, as advertised, eat the lunch of most martial artists if they tried to "fight" it). The response we received set the bells off. Basically it was, "We are the keepers of this knowledge. We will decide what does and doesn't work against the Piper System. Pay our way to come to the States and show us what you have come up with and we will take it back to SA. Furthermore, after paying our way there, pay us to teach the system before you are qualified to tell us how to counter it" (One of those four sentences is an exact quote). Now I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. The tone of the response set all kinds of bells off about these folks motives. A Swedish martial arts magazine "Fighter" did a review of just such a seminar where someone took them up on their offer to come and teach.http://www.pipersystem.com/UrbanShield/ ... ticle.html On this side of the pond though, the final stake in the heart of the credibility of the Piper System came when a well known and respected LEO trainer here in the States viewed the tape and got back to me and identified it as a variation of -- I believe -- Pekti-Tirsia"picking" techniques. Little more strum und drang, but he'd seen the basic moves before. ''
Is this similar to the method used in the Inejiro Asanuma Assassination by Otoya Yamaguchi? (I have a video link I can PM if needed, I'd rather not post it forum wide)
Well I will not be flying across the country to pay and attend a piper seminar but would like a review of it if anyone goes. My experience of it only comes from their video clips and of course this thread which is very interesting in oh so many ways. So hopefully someone can give us all a unbiased review!
I will see what I can do... I have no trained with blades ever in my entire life, if I get any Piper training I will give an unbiased review, or do my best anyways.... since Lloyd and the boys from SA are coming to the Southern California area soon it seems. (I have no vested interest in the success of Piper anywhere, it was brought up to me by a friend from South Africa who said I should check it out).
OK....this may be a little late in the game for this question....... Why, exactly, would something like the system under discussion be at all attractive? The Malay, Indonesians and Phillipines all have internationally regarded systems. Seems that if someone wanted to just dabble in a bit of street stuff they could do a bit of time or go hang-out in the city streets, yes? In the US prisons there are a number of practices intended to produce enduring, even lethal, damage on the intended target. All well and good, but unless a person intends to live in an area where they are regularly looking over their shoulder for a lethal attack, I'm afraid I just don't get this. Help? Best Wishes, Bruce
