Pencak Silat Cimande Macan Guling - WTF?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by slipthejab, Apr 11, 2007.

  1. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    I don't like the MMA comparison, I think it's an ignorant one. We DO see Silat in MMA, but I believe you are trying to refer to "The Ring". "The Ring" as most people put it, seems to have become the-all end-all proving ground of martial arts and nothing could be further from the truth.

    The people who compete in MMA are fricking GLADIATORS, they sacrafice days and months of thier lives for a brief span of time to be #1 in the ring. And believe me, that time span gets shorter every year as new contenders come up. These guys are physical specimens, they do nothing but work out and train for fighting for months on end.

    They don't have regular jobs.
    They sacrafice family and friends for training.
    They sacrafice bodily injury, often lasting into old age.

    I could go on, but the point you should see by now is that the majority of ANY group doesn't live or train this way. And even if you tried, it's not a pace you can keep up for very long...Life happens, things get in the way, you have to pay bills. Oh, and that $60,000.00 check? Umm, I hate to break this to you, but I make 15K more than that per year here in Seattle fixing computer networks. Not exactly the best return for your broken leg when you put it like that, huh? And you have to win FIRST PLACE to get the cash.

    Whenever someone says "Well, that wouldn't work in the ring" the first thing I say is "Good thing I only fight OUT of the ring, huh?" Also, most people who throw that point out never fight in the ring themselves. The ones that do have a great respect for other martial arts, THEY KNOW how it goes down in the cage.

    In the end, Pencak Silat is no more or less valid and effective than any other martial art out there. It still all comes down to the practitioner. A good fighter can make Yoga look deadly.

    You know what I would REALLY like to see? This MMA concept on an offshore oil rig, in Inernational waters. Let's bring back some real fighting, for a change. Put the biting/eye gouging back in. No pads. It's an oil rig, I can only assume body disposal would be easy...Especially in the Pacific.

    ...Hmmmnn, what's missing here...What would be the hallmark of Silat...Lemme think... *IDEA!* GOT IT!

    Somebody go grab a couple of knives. Now talk to me about the "clinch". Go on, tell me your "Shoot" method for a 6 inch razor across your throat. Because, kiddies, THAT'S PENCAK SILAT.

    Dude, I would pay SOOOOOOOO much money to see that. We would have a whole new discussion about what doesn't work in the ring.
     
  2. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    and you bring your knives, I'll bring my 9mm - seeing as its all fair to use weapons and all...

    :rolleyes:
     
  3. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    Hah! We already have something like that...It's called Iraq... :woo:

    :p :p :p :p
     
  4. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    :D

    The ring makes things equal. thats all.
     
  5. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Sorry for the late reply.

    There are two points on the vid that I wonder about. The first one isn't as floppish as the second one.

    1) @4:27
    This looks like it's some sort of scissor-leg takedown. Is that what it represents in this style. (yes I realize that this form of presentation is somewhat stylized)

    2) @6:45
    This is the one struck me right off as 'a big ass fish flop'... :D
    Ok in all seriousness... what is it? Or rather what does it represent?

    Is it a takedown? A sacrafice throw? From what I see it seems like that'd be the least desirable position to end up in during a fight.

    The guy is flexible and no doubt strong and fast when he wants to be... that much is apparent... but my original question about the vid is what exactly do those two parts in the vid represent in Silat? :confused:
     
  6. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I'm curious if you actually have a response that has to do with the original question of the thread? :confused:
     
  7. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    This move looks like a 'Gunting' or Scissor sweep. It's use is to bring someone who is upright, while you are in a ground position. The cutting leg makes contact to the standing leg, normally the back of the opponents leg. This can be followed through with the other leg also and turn it into a leg lock.


    didn't see anything at 6:45, but there is something at 6:50, so I will assume this is what you mean? It looks like a close up strike to the head followed by an all-body takedown, with the opponents head and leg trapped, as they are taken down. Again, this is just my guess based on my experience with my silat style, and the real application for this clip may be quiet different. What else it may be I cannot tell though.

    Hope this helps.
     
  8. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ah ok... the first one make sense. A scissor leg takedown. Right got it.

    The second one.. yes... lol... 6:50 forgive the mistake of 5 seconds. :p
    ah ok... would have never guessed that's what this was meant to represent.

    Thanks for clearing that up.
     
  9. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    As for the the martial value of those clips, I have never been, and never will be, impressed by people doing forms. Perhaps this is an impression formed in me from doing Shotokan, and seeing way too many people who could do quite a number of impressive looking kata, but couldn't explain the bunkai of any of them. If I see a very impressWhat's the point in learning them, then? If all you are going to do is forms, you might as well be doing Wushu or XMA. Don't get me wrong - I love wushu, but I love it because it acknowledges that it's all forms and flash. When someone is doing only forms, and claiming that it demonstrates combat ability - whether we're talking karate, CMA, Silat, or anything else - I find myself rather dubious.
    If I were to see a very graceful performance of Bassai Dai, even if I'm intimately familiar with the application of the kata myself, I'm not going to be seriously impressed unless they can demonstrate it as well. Thus, when you say that the clip has martial value because you understand the application, that still has very little meaning to me.
    I'm not asking to see the people in those demos fight off a vicious gain of flamethrower-wielding Gracies - I just want to see someone say "ok, that form we just did? Here are some actual applications of it for fighting." Until then, it's just fluff.
     
  10. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    For example

    I would find a video like [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F78Mx6_DaFs&mode=related&search=]this one[/ame] infinitely more meaningful, because the person doing the demonstration is actually explaining how Silat works. It's a choreographed demonstration against a compliant opponent, but that's fine. While it doesn't mean I accept the legitimacy of the techniques he's showing, at least he's showing them. The first video showed nothing.
     
  11. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    While we're sharing clips, here's a very short one from my teacher (both of them) demonstrating some basic striking...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPcpq3cbDEw"]YouTube[/ame]

    (I don't know how to integrate the link into the text like shown above!)
     
  12. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    Looks nice - I'm glad to see people integrating headbutts into their striking training.
     
  13. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    I do, but I am posting in response to the MMA points that were brought up earlier in this same thread. I'm curious if you actually read it?? :rolleyes:
     
  14. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    bukalah mata mu semua!

    Bobster,

    I tend to agree with you about ring based mentality, but I've had my rants before and they don't seem to cut through :)

    I personally think the all eggs in the ring mentality could be very dangerous in 'real life' but hey, what would I know :rolleyes:

    Perhaps a spell of training/sparring on hard baked rocky ground at night might work, or how about a muddy slippery riverbank....but then again that's not the ring :D If all else fails, I'd like to see the ring answer when someone draws a parang....'cus that can happen in the West too ;)

    Wali,

    Can't view the clip as I've only got access to painfully slow dial up, but I'd be interested to see how you guys use the headbut, as we train with them too.

    Slip,

    Gorka has explained the clip is free 'play' and expression, allready. Many Silat styles encourage 'playing' with techniques and are not as rigid as other MAs with strict 'this is A, counter with B' forms.

    It can be difficult for the western mindset to distinguish between play, dance, technique etc. Sometimes they might all be there :)
     
  15. gungfujoe

    gungfujoe Please, call me Erik. :)

    I've trained with Rob a few times; I can vouch for the legitimacy of the stuff he does. I'm not so sure I'd want to adopt his training practices, though. I seem to recall that he knees are in pretty bad shape and he attributed that to his training. Still, for the time being, while his knees are working for him, I wouldn't want to have to tangle with him. :)
    I found the poor production quality to be too distracting to get much out of the clip on the first viewing. Half of the guy's head is off the top of the frame while he's talking to the camera. Interesting stuff, once you get past that, though.
     
  16. SundaWarrior

    SundaWarrior Valued Member

    Cimande Macan Guling

    Back to the original topic of Cimande Macan Guling,
    I am surprised to see all the negative comments.
    Cimande Macan Guling is a traditional style from
    Banten. Every thing you see has several possible applications - not just one. Pencak Silat teaches you
    the movement first - not just for demonstration or show-
    but to develop "Rasa" or feeling. This feeling then becomes part of you and gvies you power. Notice in the
    video Cecep flows seemlessly from fast to slow, soft to powerful, this is the true "Rasa" of Pencak Silat. I guess it
    is kind of comparable to the development of Chi in Tai Chi systems except for the fact that the movements vary from fast to slow,soft to powerful and can be modified according to the Murid (student)'s character.
     
  17. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Nope. It didn't really have anything to do with the original question that I asked. And since I wasn't hoping for some big knock down drag out brawl between MMA practitioners and Silat people... it really wasn't relevant.
    Sorry. :D
     
  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I'm not. Not really.
    I simply asked the original question... I got a good answer. The whole MMA vs. Silat thing really isn't my bag. That sort of argument is never really going to go anywhere for either side frankly.
     
  19. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Indeed, a 'Pointless X vs Y' section is long overdue :rolleyes:

    However, we often do have to suffer disparaging and patronising intrusions by invincible MMA warriors in many of our threads. I think the tendency to 'pick on' the minority MA Silat says a lot more about those individuals that choose to do this....and yes I fully appreciate they are the minority and are not representative of their respective MA counterparts. Given this, the odd angry retort is to be expected.

    For the most part, we retort with valid and reasoned arguements.....'the ring is a sanitised environment within which individuals will act within certain parameters' is one of these. A statement like this is clearly not stating ring based arts are not effective and I'm sure no-one here thinks that way.

    Of course there is also the fact that in most of the world, if you are going to die in a confrontation it will be on the end of an edged weapon. However, apparently drug dealers, Columbians and Americans also like to shoot each other ;)

    Anyway, enough said :Angel:
     
  20. Trent Beach

    Trent Beach New Member

    Yes, good basic stuff, and with good body movement. I also don't know of any legitimate silat schools that don't show movements for applying in a fight right out of the jurus and langkas.
     

Share This Page