I've been doing some research and it seems that "Timothy D. Waid" only started studying Pekiti-Tirsia in 88. "Bill McGrath" seems to have trained much earlier in 1975. Tom Bisio and Bill McGrath seems to be the two prodigies of Pekiti-Tirsia. Bisio having left Pekiti-Tirsia to study San Miguel Eskrima and Ba Gua, with Bill McGrath to be left as the most senior of the Pekiti-Tirsia members. What's boggling my mind is how Timothy D. Waid was chosen as "succesor." ??? I imagine McGrath (who IMHO does have the complete system of Pekiti-Tirsia) started studying with other kali teachers, and Gaje did not appreciate this (which seems typical with the elders in the martial arts subculture). I imagine Gaje pretty much screwed McGrath out of his rightful position as succesor because he didn't approve of McGrath cross training with other teachers, and gave succesorship to Timothy Waid. Can anyone else clarify on this? Does my theory sound about right, or am I off? mr. gordo
you're treading on thin ice i suspect. let's just say that that is the way it played out. the grand tuhon wants, the grand tuhon gets.
can you clarify on this? I know it played out the way it is now, but doesn't it seem suspect that McGrath who had been with Gaje since 1975 and was considered the best Pekiti-Tirsia player along with Biso a little strange to be given up to Waid who only started training with Gaje in 1988? I know the Grand Tuhon gets what he wants....but is what he wanted just? mr. gordo
Understand this Gordo, No one takes away any of the skills or knowledge of Bill Mcgrath or Tom or anyone who studied under Tuhon in the old days but just as thing evolve so has the methodology of Teaching. Tim lived in the Philippines with Tuhon for over 7 years, He went there after already being a student in PTK under BIll and other players but wanted to also further his understanding of PTK and the science of the system. These were also the years when Tuhon was away from the U.S. and was doing to "evolve with the changing times" work on PTK and as a result of faithfuly following and giving up years of his life and service to Tuhon he was granted and shown the methodos and then some. Here is a letter posted by Tim to explain the PTGO vs the "old school of PTK" Post subject: One system of Pekiti-Tirsia These are my comments on the previous discussion of the system and training of Pekiti-Tirsia. There is much more to add but will answer them as others reply. “Old and New”, “Abecedario and Functional” are misnomers and are incorrect classifications of the Pekiti-Tirsia system. They are also not a comparison or reflection of the training methodology of Grand Tuhon Gaje. Unfortunately, there are still many misconceptions about the history, formulization, and training methods of Pekiti-Tirsia and Grand Tuhon Gaje. Many of these errors come from a simple lack of extended training in the system, yet some of them are malicious attacks on Grand Tuhon Gaje by former students who could not perform, lacked the discipline to continue training, or possessed an ego that would not permit them to continue to train. There is only one system of Pekiti-Tirsia that Grand Tuhon Gaje has consistently instructed since he began publicly teaching the art in 1972. The more you train, research, and advance in the system, the more this will become evident. First, Pekiti-Tirsia is not a combination of other styles and Tuhon Gaje did not develop Pekiti-Tirsia through training with other systems as even some Pekiti-Tirsia instructors imply. The system was handed down to him by his grandfather Grand Tuhon Tortal in the form of the Doce Methodos, Contradas, and advanced combat methods such as the Contra-Tirsia Dubla-Dos and others. Grand Tuhon Gaje many times has lectured me personally on the training received from his Grandfather and how he was taught to teach the system. He credits the system of Pekiti-Tirsia and the genetics including both the physical and mental faculties he inherited from his Grandfather. Grand Tuhon Gaje has been titled no less than a genius when it comes to his teaching ability by many throughout the martial art world. This ability enables him to formulate specifics systems for the Military and Law Enforcement based upon their professional and operational environments, and to individuals in a way that can bring to functional combat effectiveness in a very short period of time. However, this does not imply that one could equal an opponent that has more in-depth training and experience in the system. The system will work for anyone regardless of differences in physical attributes and ability. The system trains these universal attributes and develops them in everyone. Your ability and skill level will be a result of your diligence on top of your natural physical strengths. Some that do not pursue the complete knowledge of the system use excuses that they have been trained “special” or “for my individual ability” or “for specialization” because they have no desire to further learn or lack the full commitment to the mastery process. Some lack the humility to train with those instructors that have advanced rank and knowledge as well. The entire Pekiti-Tirsia family should follow the example of Mandala-Tuhon Philip Gelinas, the senior ranking Instructor in the system. His credentials and experience stand alone and above most yet he recognizes others have had unique aspects of training with Grand Tuhon Gaje and is open to an exchange of knowledge among all instructors. The test of the ancient masters remains the same. Grand Tuhon Gaje wishes to see that one has mastered the previous skills taught so that the training process can continue. If you have not done so you can only be taught at the level of your performance. It is as simple as that. On the system, the Contra-Tirsia Dubla-Dos first comes from mastery of the Doce Methodos and the Contradas systems and the application of the principles of Dubla-Dos. The Tri-V Formula is advanced application of angular diagonal attacks. However, without knowledge and training in the preceding systems, your ability to successfully execute the Tri-V against an advanced opponent will be negligible. If this were not so, then the Tri-V would be the system. The Pekiti-Tirsia system, from the Abecedario method through the advanced combat methods, is indispensable for the education of the complete fighter and as an Instructor. The system is the key to combat skill and the understanding of the training methods, tactics, and techniques to be combat effective. It also contains the “secrets” of teaching the system, and, how to train and individual or group to a certain level of knowledge based upon trust and loyalty. How else would these systems continue to exist if not placed in a logical and progressive formula? Having been taught these systems by Grand Tuhon Gaje himself, I have witnessed and assisted him teach thousands of students and instructors, gone back through video from the 70’s until today, and can classify all of his instruction within these systems. The reason many think they have different “versions” or “systems” is because (1) They don’t have full knowledge of the systems, and (2) Don’t understand that Grand Tuhon Gaje frequently develops unique drills from the particular method or tactic he is teaching. This may include the core drills of a particular method yet it may not. I personally have been taught both ways. Grand Tuhon Gaje may also give you specific drills to correct a bad habit or accentuate a natural attribute or ability. The Filipino Warriors, Tribal Leaders, and Grandmasters created a combat technology that I believe is unparalleled in the history of martial art and close-quarters combat with both weaponry and empty-hands. The logic and pragmatism of its training methodology enable it to equal and overcome the advantages of other weaponry and their particular style. I believe the same is true for Pekiti-Tirsia, created by the Tortal family and applied in modern combat through the teachings of Grand Tuhon Gaje. I have trained, practiced, and observed the majority of the FMA systems and styles in the popular domain, and likewise many in the Philippines that have not been exposed to the public. I have found that I can instantly classify a particular tactic or technique, understand its range and engagement of the opponent’s weapon or body, and identify the appropriate counter-offense to defeat it. This is possible through the knowledge and understanding of the system of Pekiti-Tirsia, the most authentic and advanced system of Filipino Fighting Art in existence today. I hope all will continue in the mastery process and will assist you in any manner possible. Tim Waid Gordo wrote: I imagine McGrath (who IMHO does have the complete system of Pekiti-Tirsia) started studying with other kali teachers, and Gaje did not appreciate this (which seems typical with the elders in the martial arts subculture). I imagine Gaje pretty much screwed McGrath out of his rightful position as succesor because he didn't approve of McGrath cross training with other teachers, and gave succesorship to Timothy Waid. You don't know what you are talking about so don't make up things. BIll was very loyal to Tuhon, Whenever he did study with other masters it was through the introduction of Tuhon such as Eddie Jaffrie so don't make up things! Get your facts straight before you start rumors! It's a personal thing between Tuhon And Bill. Tim is not a successor to Pekiti Tirsia , He heads certain areas of the organization because of his knowledge and qualifications gained through years working with Tuhon and with the Philippine Force Recon and Law Enforcement agencies in the years spent in the Philippines so because of these contacts made and credentials he so rightly should head some of the positions in the Organization because he's qualified to do so. Bill Mcgrath does have the complete system of Pekiti Tirsia International, Don't put Bill and Tim against each other, I know both men very well and they both are good people. If you have a questions ask Tuhon directly grandtuhon@yahoo.com and don't start making your own assumptions that are incorrect in a public forum. I would not join in on the political intrigue. It does not concern you and it's like airing dirty laundry in the public something we don't need in the FMA if we are trying to form a good brotherhood amongst us.
Bayani, Your assistance was greatly appreciated. Fascinating letter by Tim Waid. Small jabs here and there by Waid in the letter, but it is an interesting perspective. I looked on McGrath's website for a similar type of message, but there wasn't one. If it looked like I was making things up or trying to start trouble, that's an incorrect assumption. I was just trying to research the history of Pekiti-Tirsia and came up with conflicting information. Thanks for the information, you cleared up alot. mr. gordo
The other thing to note is that Tuhon McGrath and Tuhon Waid were not the only original crew members here in the states. There was Tom Bisio (as already noted), Eric Knaus and David Wink to name a few others. Also, it is important to note that Grand Tuhon Gaje has evolved Pekiti a lot over the last decade. Tuhon McGrath's life has taken him in a different direction and the last time I talked with him he acknowledged that he's not up to date on the lastest evolutions Gaje has made to the system. It's rather tough for most Pekiti Instructors here in the states. Even since the time I formally stopped taking Pekiti lessons I know there have been some big changes from talking with my old instructor. The beautiful thing about that is that Pekiti is constantly evolving. And I don't think anyone could ask more of an art than that. The down side is that its sometimes difficult to pin down what the "complete system" of Pekiti is. This has led to some fragmenting of the system. We currently have two Pekiti instructors in the area. Both worked with Tuhon McGrath. One is constantly going back to the Phillipines to train with Gaje (the Pekiti guys on the board know who this is). What we end up with is two people who teach fairly similiar things with very different training methodoligies. - Matt
Matt, Thanks for the input. That's one of the things I wanted clarified. McGrath does know the entire system of Pekiti-Tirsia (traditional/classical), he just hasn't kept up with the evolutions since then. Yes, most arts evolve....and it never stops. I'm sure McGrath has evolved in his own manner, and expresses his Pekiti-Tirsia in his own way. mr. gordo
Here's as far as I will go: If we were to take a snapshot of Pekiti Tersia at the time when Tuhon McGrath and Grand Tuhon Gaje parted ways, McGrath had everything. However a LOT of time and evolution has passed since then. And Pekiti looks different and is taught differently (I stopped formally training around 2000 and I know there have been a lot of changes since then). It's like comparing the Jun Fan that Bruce Lee's Seattle group were taught vs. what the LA crew were taught. Same art. Different times, different incarnations. The current "complete" Pekiti is defined by Gaje and no one else. So going by those rules, McGrath doesn't have the currently complete system. He'll admit what he has is a snapshot, albiet a complete one for the time. And there's a deeper breakdown of the split on Bullshido where you also posted this question BTW. - Matt
Matt, Thanks again, yeah I just checked Bullshido. I'm going to read through the back issues of Eskrima Digest, but I think I have a greater understanding now. mr. gordo
Mr. Gordo Wrote "Yes, most arts evolve....and it never stops. I'm sure McGrath has evolved in his own manner, and expresses his Pekiti-Tirsia in his own way." Very true. PTK is my core system though I study several other FMA systems. Within PTK I studied under several instructors to see why the output and undestandings were quite varried and because of the way Tuhon taught (mostly according to the individuals strengths, you have to consider what the plan was for that student. Were they being taught to teach the system and to whom Such as Proffessional agencies like the Military or Law Enforcement or civilian population ) you will find a unique perspective of each instructor. None more correct than the other just an undestanding of a training method suited for them. This is why I am always fascinated with the methodology of PTK in comparrisson to other FMA systems. It's always amusing to see how the process creates different skills and understanding among it's practitioners. In contrast to what Tim says regarding only one and no old and new...there's a difference. How can one duplicate the creation of the original skills of the old PTK, BIll Mcgrath, Tom Bisio, Eric Knaus,(the NY crew with Agapito Gonzalez etc. Erwin Vallarta, Jim Herman , Omar Hakim and even Chris Sayoc and Dan Inosanto to mention a few. The common denomenator? They studied under Gaje himself. Everyone was taguth bit's and pieces like what Tim says but....can't deny how good they turned out to be now can you? If you follow Tuhon and learn under him , he still continues to teach with an unstructured chaos for those that try to pin a system down. What Tim has is the keys to undestanding how things relate to each other within the system. He can say all he wants about completeing this and that but you also can also say it was made for ...him to be able to express his way of teaching based on his character or purpose. It's just another tool for those that need to learn this way compared to learning Bill's way or Tom's wat etc. Those that learn directly under Tuhon find that they learned a similar but different way suited for them. I hope this further confuses er I mean clarifies some points
Bayani, You make perfectly logical sense to me. I've been researching the San Miguel Eskrima and Pekiti-Tirsia this month because an incredible opportunity has come my way. I have the option of stuyding San Miguel under one of Tom Bisio's top guys.....I also have the option of studying Pekiti-Tirsia with one of McGrath's top guys. I've been going back and forth in my head as to what I want to do and still can't decide. I'm leaning towards Pekiti-Tirsia as of right now. If there's any light that someone can shed as to the strengths and weaknesses of one or the other, please let me know. Mr. Gordo
Mr Gordo, Just out of curiosity, who are they two people you're trying to choose from & where are you? - Matt
BBC is airing the footage of Pekiti Tirsia and other Martial Arts shot last december -january in the Philippines on Jan 9 at 9pm. Philippines: Pekiti Tirsia Kali, Modern Arnis / Kombatan, Bakbakan International (Kali Illustrisimo), Haring Bakal Group
