parents and non parents.

Because parents have kids, I imagine they know the flaws and idiosyncrasies of children, so I imagine that yes, they can understand, or come to understand, why some dont want to have children and why some people just don't like them.

And, at the same time, I think people who don't like kids and don't want them can understand parenting - it is one of the reasons they will choose that they don't want to have kids. and because kids have characteristics about them , its also why some of us just dont like kids. Its not the kids fault - they're kids. They didnt choose to be kids. And honestly, I bet lots of them can't wait to become adults.

So my belief is that parents and non parents can understand each other. Or if they don't, they can learn. The comment made by someone here that non parents absolutely cannot never ever ever understand parenting EVER, and parents can't understand non parents EVER, well I just believe it is not true.

and why is it that parenting is touted by some parents as this really mysterious thing that no one can ever ever understand, but them? THAT statement is what I don't understand.

 

Kids are the most expensive pets ever. And I mean, they're cool pets, you can teach them a lot of neat tricks. But still, some folks don't like having pets, they'd rather like 3 ferraris instead of raising a little jerk to 18.

 

Save me the trouble of what? Sorry, not following you, I think I need more coffee :[

 

also - some people who have kids are rather - i dont know. Stuck up. They seems smug. Cocky. Because they had a kid. and suddenly its like they are special. Like a different kind of human. Some of those comments were made here. For example they are the only ones who knows what worry is, they have the monopoly on it and they are the only ones who know tired, and putting down their friends' activities as silly because they'd like to go to the movies with you. I got told here talking to me about kids is like asking the anorexic what is a proper diet. I got told that I should be disowned, just like what my brother did to me. But why act that way? what parents did is what a cockroach did. which is to reproduce. But some people who are parents give me a fast burn.

I never really cared much of anything about kids and people with kids until what my brother did to me. I was so naive. Then after that happened, I started going online and doing research about parents and the childfree - well really about the childfree and people who don't like kids and how society sees them.

I would never dream of saying to parents anything like talking to you is like the anorexic, or you dont know freedom, or you don't understand my life. (Because all parents were without children once, right?)

I just seems like people without kids are second class citizens in society. To me anyway. For one example, the "big secret mysterious club" thing that we can never understand. I'll return to it. Um....what? and when you have kids you get to join it. I noticed with my friend that has a son, that some people on her facebook never even really talked to her until she had her son. Then they started coming out the woodwork. I mentioned it to her and she brushed me off. But i noticed it.

 

yep - a jerk of the hand instead of normal regular goes a long way to avoiding raising a little jerk.

 

Here's the thing. If you're not a parent, you can't fully understand parenting. Parenting is a practical thing that can only be understood through the practice of it. In that way, it's like Martial Arts. Non practitioners can watch Bruce Lee movies or UFC and appreciate it on several levels, but until you've spent time doing it, you cant hope to fully understand it.

Parents can understand non-parents - they were non-parents at one point, but their memories of that time will likely be tainted by time and by the need to convince themselves that they are happier now than they were then (whether they are, or not) - no parent wants to think that their child, who they love, has had a negative effect on their happiness.

 

Here's the thing to use your comment hehe

I agree with hannibal, that Doing it is different. Going through it is different. I agree with that. But I don't think that actually going through it leads to a better understanding of the subject (whatever it is) A person can survived the Holocaust. It does not mean that they understand it more than the person who made an excellent study of WWII , Hitler, what created him, and why he did wehat he did and started WWII but never experienced any of it themselves.

Going back to the MA's reference. There are people here who don't like kata. Maybe never done kata. I have done kata. Doesnt mean I have a better understanding of it than they do. They understand it. And they know its not what they like. In fact, they might know even more about it than myself.

 

But the researcher has no emotional understanding, which is what parents mean when they say 'you couldn't possibly understand until you have kids of your own', or other such patronising drivel.

If you've never done kata, you don't understand kata and you don't dislike kata so much as you dislike the idea of kata.

I (currently) dislike the idea of parenting, but that's no indication that I wouldn't enjoy it if it ever got thrust upon me.

 

Yeah patronizing drivel

Of course parents will have lots of emotion. So will the holocaust survivor. (how can they not?) Those things obviously come with plenty emotion. I dont deny that.

*waits for a non kata person to come* I think I'd love to see a forum cat fight about this within tos of course

I still think a non kata person can understand kata and the idea of kata, without actually doing heian shodan a little tiny beginner kata. or kanku dai a big advanced kata.

and I think non parents can understand parents. and learn to understand parenting if they dont currently. and, of course, vise versa.

 

they screw you up your mum and dad,
they may not mean to but they do,
they fill you with the faults they had
and add some extra just for you

man hands on misery to man,
It deepens like a coastal shelf,
Get out as early as you can
and don't have any kids yourself.


(adapted to suit TOS)

 

What context are we dealing with here? When you say understand, what do you mean?

 

The original quote was

He said joy, so he probably meant emotion. which I agree with. I do agree parents would have emotions and feelings we wouldnt have. Yeah. I get that. Its not the same as understanding, but they would have emotions we wouldnt.

Might be more best to ask him, homie, what he meant.

I took it to mean he thinks we cant understand the issues and things that go on with parents. Which of course I object to.

One example is, My friend said her life is really no different than before she had her son. I thought to my mind, You dont think I would believe that, do you? Of course I understand the issues, like the differences between her and I now. I can just leave and do whatever whenever. She can't do that. That is just one issue I do have an understanding of.

She had a conundrum when canada day came. I couldnt go because I was sick. But she was faced with what do with her son when she went to see the fireworks. Her parents were going to be gone, and they couldnt hire a sitter. I knew her son is a night owl, just like she is. So I said, Bring him with you. Its only one night, and he's used to being up later anyways. (he's 1.) Plus it will get him used to fireworks. She asked me what to do.

 

I see what you did there

 

Hi Blade,

I am totally prepared to believe that you can understand the mechanics of being a parent without being one, but a massive part of being a parent isn't at all to do with the mecahnics.

Its things like lying awake at night with a bunch of irrational fears about what might happen to them, and most of all, its the relentlessness of the whole thing. That's the bit that non-parents usually don't understand properly. It never stops. Twenty four hours a day, every day, for the rest of your life. There really aren't that many things that are the same.

I have absolutely no doubt that you are just as able to understand joy just like me, sadness, all the other stuff, but it is the particular context that it different. The best analogy would be sex, perhaps? You can understand pretty much everything about what is going to happen before your first time, but is that the same thing as saying you understand sex?

And, as I have recently discovered, there are a whole bunch of layers to this, just like onions, and ogres. I have a 16 year old daughter, and as of two years ago, a horde of triplets. Parenting the first time was really nothing like this time, and while some of what I 'understood' has definately come in handy this time around, I am still picking up new understandings as I go.

Which is the bottom line. Even parents don't really understand what it is to be a parent. We all act like we do, because basicaly speaking one of the first things you realise is that kids really on you to know what you are up to. But at the end of the day the whole thing is, at least for me, almost totally improvised. This is also the thing that I enjoy about it the best.

But hey, maybe I'm just tired, and maybe you do get this just like me. In which case I will happily pay your airfare to come and take care of the trio of terror for even just a 48 hour period. We could both use a break

paul

 

oh, and you are probably going to hate this, but.....

In my limited experience of the universe, the more you say you will never do something, the more likely it is to actually happen. So if you really don't want to have kids you had best be careful

That said, with your obvious tenacity, and sense of humour... you would make a great mum. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha

paul

 

Blade, I really don't want to insult you as I rather like you and enjoy your convention (although I've been less active lately because I've been very busy) so don't hesitate to slap me over text if what I say insults you.

This seems like a severe over reaction. I can understand the feeling of being left out and sympathize with you as it's a feeling I know well. Another feeling I know well however is true discrimination and what it's like to be (as you put it) a second class citizen. I'll try and put it in perspective why I take issue with that comparison. Correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong.

Have you ever had to hide your identity as a non parent in order to live life as you please? For example, my sensei is chatholic, and I don't know his views on homosexuality. We often have personal conversations and I have to be very mindful that I don't say something that will let him know I'm gay. He may then take issue with that (especially as I teach kids, and the old gay/pedophile link is still alive) and not allow me to teach karate.

As a non parent, do you constantly hear people comparing being a non parent to being either a deviant or just outright not right and stupid? Every day for me. Are stereotypes attributed to you by people you've just met upon finding out you don't have children? Have they ever said "hey, I know someone who doesn't have kids with, you two should go on a date or something!"

Have you ever had a boss that most days at work would rant about non parents and how wrong it is? I had a boss once that would almost every day at lunch talk make constant homophobic comments. I was in the closet and an at will intern, so I had no recourse. I ended up ovoiding him wich resulted in him disliking me. Without any forewarning I was called down to human resources one day and told my internship wouldn't continue into the school year, Now I can't use him as a reference.

Until very recently, I didn't have equal rights in the United States, and even still I only do in some states, have you faced anything similar?

Have you ever had slurs hurled at you from across a crowd by people you don't know for being a non parent?

Please excuse the rant, as it turned out longer than I originally planned. I don't think it's justified to look down on people for not having kids, but lets just keep things in perspective. I wouldn't call it discrimination and I wouldn't use the words second class citizen,

 

I have a feeling that most parents regard people with no kids with envy, not discrimination, but I get that there are probably idiots out there that think having kids makes them 'special'.

It doesn't. End of story. It just means you have kids. No more, no less. Other than yourself and your offspring, or just yourself, nobody should really care.

paul