Couldn't find a topic on it, so I thought it'd be cool to have a thread dedicated to Pankration. Human Weapon covers Pankration in one of their episodes (which can be found online), and covers some pretty awesome stuff. Obviously, Pankration died off thousands of years ago but has been recently rediscovered through texts, pictures on vases, coins, throughout Greek Mythology, etc and many people have tried to recreate it for modern application, and even though things like footwork, pivoting, combos, etc. are near impossible to draw from ancient sources, we can utilize what we already know from other Arts and get the general idea. So please share your opinions or any other useful information. I've only recently begun studying pankration (research) and would love to give it a boost in this community. Historical Pankration Project - Awesome site with techniques and whatnot. Warning: Pankratiasts did fight naked. Be prepared for an awkward moment if researching pankration near a loved one... or anyone.
Jimmy Arvnaitis Take a peek at these articles about Jimmy Arvanitis and his attempts to revive Pankration- http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/m...rects-pankration-the-first-mixed-martial-art/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Torbjorn_Jaktlykt/Jim_Arvanitis He started this all back in the late 1970's. naked men eh ... lulz ;' ) FWIW LFD
I've actually read some of Arvanitis' work and am pretty impressed by it but he's modernized it so much, I can't tell what's original and whats not. I do like the fact that he's studied mythology, ancient greeks sports, and all the things that surrounded and created this sport. He seems pretty legit.
For as long as I can remember, Shooto has billed itself as the "The Way To Modern Pankration". I imagine Pancrase had a similar motivation. A lot of those old school pro-wrestling guys here in Japan who created the MMA industry here probably felt like they were recreating pankration.
If I was admin, I'd move this thread into the WMA subforum. Why? Because we have loads of stuff in common. Penkration is from greece (or the antic cultural region that today roughly translates to Greece); which is in the Weastern hemisphere (after all Greece is allways given the honorary title of cradle of democracy and the birthplace of european culture) Secondly, most arts we discuss in WMA are allso dead martial arts from medieval europe (or later periods, like the IMO wonderful thread about Mendoza boxing, etc). As we all work on ressurection of dead arts, we could probably learn from eachother. :topic::topic::topic::topic::topic::topic:
Yes, it's been built up and recreated by so many people but sometimes it seems as though you get a lot of MMA fighters advertising as Pankratiasts yet they hardly know what it is. Obviously it has to be modernized to an extent but still. I think an understanding of its history, involvement in Greek culture, "spiritual" aspect, and all that should at least be incorporated into more of self-proclaimed schools. At least its revived though. I was considering posting it there but wasn't quite sure where it belonged. Nice to see other arts being revived as well. I enjoy studying the ancient 'dead' arts.
How are you on sources? HEMA (historical european martial arts) base re-creation on experiences from modern sports-systems, from asumed similar systems from other parts of the world (like japans shinto ryu kenjutsu/kendo, etc), from some manuals many of them gathered here: http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm -and from constantly discussing and gathering. How are you on manuals, have you gathered all written sources on pankrateon, pictures, etc, and work from there, how much of the stuff you do are really only guesswork, etc? I ask, because (sadly) there are quite a lot of "Viking-fighing-experts" out there willing to tell you tons about how vikings fought, when we really don't have any sources at all (apart fom what little is found in sagas/beowulf, contemporary christian texts, the odd stone-picture, and the weapons themselves). This is in opposition to medieval longsword, where we have several manuals that actually both show "snapshots" of the technique and have some texting that gives you a clue on how you're supposed to execute the manuals). So there's plenty of potential ditches to fall into when ressurecting a lost martial art. Apart from a group called Hammarborg in Germany, I have yet to see a "Viking-martial-arts-group" that have any plausible approaches to Viking MA. (The wrestling-system"Glima" do have some sources on Iceland, but it's only fragments of those sources that are actualy from viking age, and all of the sources are written after the viking time)
Pankration's reconstruction seems to be very similar to The Viking MA you mentioned. Most of it comes from vases, texts, mythology, coins, engravings, etc. Although there is no manual, Pankration does seem to be easier to reconstruct due to the fact that its a sport and once the sport is understood, it's easier to understand as a whole system. But the lack of details on specific techniques, footwork, variations, etc., do make it hard to have an authentic Pankration style. All the stuff, however, that I've taken from books, pictures, and texts, make me feel that I have a basic understanding but not having, like you said, a step-by-step manual, you can only go so far.
As long as one are honest to beginners/spectators about what is presented in pictures/texts, and what is guesswork.
Absolutely. A lot of the art is guesswork but looks so close to techniques we know today, we can already assume what the purpose of the technique was. I'm going to start updating this thread here in a little with techniques we KNOW existed in Pankration, and others in question along with training, competition rules, usage in combat, etc. If anyone has any more information they'd like to contribute, then please feel free to do so.
We had a thread where we compared Katana with longsword, we could do somthing similar here; if you post some wrestling-moves you know are from Pankrateon, I can see if I find similar technique in italian wrestling or in what little german wrestling I know.
Can't seem to edit late posts so I'll post some of the basics here. Stand-up Pankration (Ano Pankration) utilized many different striking techniques. I will update later with my sources/pics: Straight punches - (Both lead and rear hands [jab/cross], yet there is no documentation I am aware of as the jab being used as it is today..). Punches did, however, utilize pivoting that we often see today to put more power behind strike. Hooks/Uppercuts - Both hooks and uppercuts seem to have been used but due to drawings being two dimensional, getting exact angles is difficult. Overhead looping punches also seem to be used. Open-handed strikes - Multiple pictures on vases of open-handed palm strikes as well as a 'knife hand' strike but used upside down. (There's also stories of people using their fingers to strike through the skin of an opponent and kill them). Also, curled fingers were used with palm strikes, for whatever reason. Hammer fists- Just your good ol' downwards hammerfist, seemingly to be used only when the situation calls for (advantageous positioning). Elbows - One vase depicts a pankratiast trapping an arm with one arm and elbowing an opponent in the face with another. Knees - A few pictures show Pankratists delivering knees to the groin area (one is of a Greek hero delivering a knee to a centaur, I believe. I will check on that later.) Headbutts - Although I've found no sources of headbutting, I'm sure it was used due to minimal rules and it's also said to have been recorded at some time. Kicks - There is no evidence of any roundhouses being used. Rather, all the kicks were either angled towards the knee of an opponent or the abdoment. All kicks were like a push kick utilizing the heel of the foot, rather than the ball of the foot. I'll update later with more stand up grappling techniques, throws/takedowns, and ground (kato) fighting/techniques.
Good initiative. I believe others here are better at german medieval wrestling than me, so I'll focus on Fiore (italian medieval): Fiore does not explicitly mention punching in any of his tecniques, but in his introduction, writes something about the difference between fighting for mun (holds of love) and fighting for real (holds of war), and the nessessity to train for the latter if you are to be ready for the latter. Allso the germans talks about softening punches (mordschlag), and indeed, when we train techniques, we frequently see situations where punching/elbowing is relevant. Here's a pic of a disarm but notice his right hand.... http://www.the-exiles.org/essay/pd_fmr_05.jpg In his wrestling/dagger-section, a lot of hand over face-pictures are shown in order to break the opponents structure. This could very well allso include open handed strikes, but they are not mentioned explicitly in the manual text. Here's a picture that could be either a flat hand, punch or elbow-punc in order to break the opponent's balance: http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/images/abrazare_2_5_220.jpg Fiore dagger shows a lot of hammerfist-techniques (and counters to them), but none performed without the dagger. Some straight armbar-techniques and "Iron-Gate-holds" invites use of elbow to face as part of getting into the technique. (See picture above as excample) This is identical with Fiore.
Very interesting. I'll have to post some known throws/grappling techniques soon and see what the two have in common.
