Pangamut or Filipino boxing ?

That's the day I start either being nicer online or habitually wearing a Richard Nixon mask when I'm at my computer.


Stuart

 

awwww shuckss please no hailing. Hailing of rocks at me I understand , that would be projectile theory? I like the Richard Nixon mask idea though

On the panagmut version of my training, I try very much to stick with the same movements I make with the weapon. Instead of straight linear punches which in translation to weapons really is not powerfull or the preffered way to deliver a power strike, the downward diagonal common to FMA or a hacking strike, or "bolo' Strike in Yaw Yan is more the choice of emptyhands work. . Ever wonder why hacking is not allowed in boxing? probably because it would end the boxing match much quicker!
I was taught that muscle memeory places a big role in being able to accomplish your intended skills, you have already been using a certain set of muscles and in our case 90% weapons training so it would be easier to translate it to emptyhands. Why change? Why have a different set of moves when it's emptyhands? when with slight adjustments like traget areas, certain parts of the body and tactics etc. I know that weapons are weapons and emptyhands are emptyhands but with time being spent in the majority with weapons, finding ways to use the same moves in emptyhands is how we interpret and teach pangamut.

To illustrate this, I have some students who are amatuer boxers, fast powerful and can certainly take punches. In sparring we cetainly match up I would not box a boxer, kick a kicker, grapple a grappler, that's their game. I play weapons the equalizer ! Once I foguht as though I had a weapon in my hands, speed, power , mechanics , My body now recognized the feel. SOme call it similar to pavlovian training or NLP but in emptyhand theory we have tactics that equate just as well.

 

Great post!

Lemme ask you this though. Often, FMA guys say that the closest analog to empty hand is knife fighting. On the one hand, that makes sense. In terms of proximity to the target and size of the weapon, knife fighting is closest to empty hand. But one is bladed and the other is an impact weapon. So you think it makes more sense that the analog for empty hand should be the stick, yeah?

I thought of it only because in knife fighting, the linear strikes you mentioned would make more sense.

Cheers.


Stuart

 

Try thinking badjak (Small carabao horn) or kubaton for impact . We still think of knife as the step before emptyhands.

To answer your question, if you follow the exact moves then think more of slashes on pakal would equate to hooks and elbows. Hooking and control points using the knife are related to emptyhand locks and control tactics. The adjustments made to make your physical weapons work are minute. A straight jab or cross for example is not the preffered strike done with a weapon like a stick, but the motion is still done with a knife (thrust) it then equates to jabs with the fingers to the eyes or throat and raking with the fingernail bed to the eyes. Brings to mind of a tactics of dipping your fingers in "sili" a type of supper hot pepper. let the scratching and cat fights begin ok, ok not to sound too gross but I have to add, the other tactic was to dip it in "Tae" nope not the kwon do version , you know..the one that looks like a baby Ruth Chocolate bar? Can you say infection?
I think I'm not suppossed to share these things :bang: either way , wash your hands before you eat.

 

ahhh...the bolo punches...hehehehe...much more powerful than a boxer's punch!!! I learned it more efficiently because i could relate it to the strikes of my sticks..=) it's allowed in our competitions, have seen quite a few getting hit by these....they are greatly stunned!!! one of them had been knocked out from just a single bolo punch hit.

 

I think it was called "VICKS Tagalog"...funny coz my ex-girlfriend taught me about this ehhehehe..i miss her :cry: ....not because vicks-tagalog reminded me of her....errrr...silly me :bang:

 

oh oh! i do! i do!

hmmm...i think i have some clips from practice at the dungeon. lemme see if i can post them (mpeg4 to mpeg 2 conversions! help!)

yeah! yeah! it works in dumog/ boltong too! (lemme guess, a certain cordillera priest gave it to you).

that would be nice to see on video!

**sigh** memories!

 

more more more wikid

 

This thread is turning out to be really excellent. I'll write more later. Just wanted to say it's nice to see such a productive thread.

 

Now does this have something to do with the scene in Men in black with the cockroach like people? ok , ok I have to say that I really can't see the future, there was this video porn thing and.. uhhhh yeah I see dead people...I keeed, I Keeed. no more hailing of words ok? :bang: the voices won't stop in my head.

Diablo Despacio, no arguements here either just exchange of ideas.

 

Sure fella, i is up for serious constructive debate and the flow of ideas an
d 'stuff' helps me understand

"All hail Bayani the one who see's the future"

 

aaaaaaaargh... :bang: :bang: :bang:

 

hi Pat

You is right, i do need to sample more, is that an offer for me to come and train up North wid ya like

i train with pro-boxers and good amatuers in Brighton and Hastings along with some good fellow MA-tists from Vale Tudo and mixed martial arts background and i can pull lots off, but lots not , my Fma empty hands feels more like Vale Tudo?

How is pangamut , sorry FMA true empty hands trained then, I know there a plethora of styles sytems ??!!

I try and try my techniques against a boxer or MMA guy, obviously i am limiting some of my weapons - finger jabs just one example, and one could argue that it is not simulating true combat - however, it is one of the best ways to train in an alive manner with a non compliant partner - that isn't 'letting' me pull of techniques and is fighting back.......................

phew i is tired and waffling later guys

 

Superb post. I whole heartedly agree.

 

lemme just add to that with the evolution of fma empty hands over here. over here it evolved because of survival. you don't want to die, you learn what is efficient. what is stylized and arty in other forms of m.a. exist because they have the luxury to do so. in a poor country where practicality and simplicity are the rule, the m.a. tends to be simple and direct to the point: "i don't want to die. if i have to kill you to live, then so be it! matira matibay!!! (roughly: the strong/ durable survive! much is lost in translation.)

 

lovely posts by the way!

so how would one train ones techniques to ensure they are functional against a non-compliant partner........................

wouldn't things just become stylised through too much one-step sparring and lose the edge - i mean for the person practicing them not a flaw in the techniques.

In wing chun (not knocking WC) and maybe some other traditioanl arts ? when sparring they leave out techniques or say they cannot spar because the techniques they use will kill you - i find that sometimes a bit of a cop out ! (okay i know some of the techniques probably would kill me )

We fight the way we train ?

if we are not used to the dynamic flow of a spar, fight -whatever, you will not learn how to make your techniques work sure you may have a good intellectual knowledge but there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

When i first started hard stick sparring, limited armour i found that a lot i had been taught was not funtional and through long hrs of sparring i found out whats good and whats not?

If i had not gone through that process i would have still been believing in something that was not practical. I went through a similar process in WC.

I realise that so called street and sport are different in many respects but those sport practitioners boxers judoka wrestlers are far more prepared for the combat, fighting ? in many respects than the traditionalist who pull punches and train in a heavily weighted one-step sparring training mode thangymajig

i also realise that training in sport you are not training 'proper' street combat or whatevr you want to call it because of the inclusion of rules and after all the 'modes operandi' of attacks on the street is so so different from one on one sparring...............................

I is not knocking FMA by the way i love them with all my heart i just want to understand fully and get some debate going :Angel:
Nice

 

Protect the areas that you plan to attack, spar only with enough resistance so as to make your partner work for those shots. Spar to be able to use what you learn. Spar not to destroy or try to have a winner because there really are no winners rememeber this is not an athletic competition but a training method to bring about the use of skill with an unwilling partner. Because of this "controlled sparring" you can in a lot of ways do many things such as eye gouging, striking to the throat and yes even biting to certain areas that have been re-enforced. You are not trying to beat the crap out of your partner but developing the skills and moves to get to your target. It's one thing to say I can do this and do that and it's another to actually practice going for these certain target ares using these so called dirty tactics. This we found to be the closest way to be able to practice what we do. it's not a sparring match like NHB or vale tudo or kickboxing because the targets of opportunity are easy , there are certain targets that will end a fight in a matter of seconds. You will most likely use what you have become comfotable in training and if NHB style is what you have accustomed yourself to doing and not street fighting then your focus would be to submit and not maim or kill the other person.

Once again the form of FMA I am reffering to is one that has been trained as a combative form. Let's take for example our training with the Special forces and Law Enforcement to include the SWAT, The combative concept is to get in there, do what you have to do then get out. Not get in there and focus on one single opponent, The training teaches to employ tactics under durress so as to develop reflexive moves and skills but still being able to accomplish your mission. In our terms , mission to live. To add realism, we use paint ball guns, for training but not live fire same thing should applies. If it were more of an athletic form of training and competitive sport then NHB and Vale tudo and other UFC type training is supreme. I am not saying they are not effeectiv emptyhands training, far from it just different mind set. Case in point, this guy (who art is irrelevant) wanted to take his opponent to the ground to diffuse the other guy's boxing skill, down they go, people form around the fight and he get's stabbed and kicked by the forming crowd. Actually both guys get stomped and kicked come to think of it
It's never one on one in the street.


Hope this helps put a perspective of how one can train a deadly form of combat without killing the other guy. It's not anything new, it's a transferrance of weapons training drills, controlled striking in a dynamic fashion, who argues that a blade penetrating the body will not do damage? Just gotta believe when History points out the body count and just ask the local jail inmate