Discussion in 'Silat' started by Narrue, Feb 26, 2011.

  1. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    You know the word "pancaka" means five, therefore Pencak which must be derived from the former Sanskrit suggests that Silat is composed or the result of five aspects.
  2. G21

    G21 New Member


    That is a possibility. I think there would be a lot of interesting stuff to be unveiled by proper etymological research onto the vocabulary of different martial art styles and systems. The number 5 ("lima") seem to percolate on many disguises in many Silat forms ranging from an actual systems name (Gayong Lima) to more concrete themes such as specified footwork training patters ("langkah").

    Check out

    Whilst the diagram is described (p. 13-17) as a 4-corner dance ("empat" / "sliwa") the diagram clearly points at a fifth reference point that being the tail in the middle of the upper hand line?

    Ummm... I dont know.
  3. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Yet another tale tells of a Minangkabau prince of West Sumatra who had four bodyguards. One originating from Persia, one from China, another from Vietnam and the last from Siam. They each brought with them their own domestic fighting arts and these were later combined into what is now known as Pencak Silat.

    If the story is true then adding the above four arts together will generate a new art, a fifth art "pencak" silat.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011
  4. Shihabudeen

    Shihabudeen Valued Member

    The 5 (lima)

    There is a prophet by the name of Solomon (as) in islam he is called Sulayman (as) peace be upon him, he is original human source for wisdom... in answer to his prayer that God Almighty should grant him the wisdom to lead his people... God Most Wise, Most Compassionate, was pleased that he did not ask for wealth or fame or satisfaction of worldly desires... granted his request and gave to him "Wisdom as no one before him or after would be granted."... to Him God Almighty gave the true sourcings for alchemy... astrological science, herbal medicine, physical therapy, and numerology.... etc...these have all been lost through the passage of time... although in some cultures there is a trace of these arts... in the most ancient of martial arts you will find these arts by the pious intact... the closer you get to the pure sourcing you will find herbal healing arts, massage and yoga therapy, numerology and guidance from the signs in the heavens... astrology and dreamwork... etc... some silat systems maintain these intact... our silat has all of these aspects.... but in the world these arts have been perverted and we are cautioned against them as sorcery... although the people who have this knowledge and share it may be blessed, this is rarely the case.... often times you will have people with no spiritual integrity themselves giving their ego tainted opinions as guidance in light of any truth they are able to access through their oracles or other forms of divination...this is manifested as magic, or animism forms... true dream interpretation for example does guide and powerfully so... but the interpreter must be spiritually pious and aware of spiritual symbols as well as the cultural symbolisms of the dreamer in order to accurately guide that interpretation so his students will be informed of inspired guidance....(he must also know where his student has been, is and will be spiritually to guide him aright)

    that being said, The five in our system... speaks to the physical senses which are five... visual, auditory, vocal, sensate, and heart, these are gates or ways to approach spiritual perception, divine inspiration descends from above externally and reaches the first of these gates a truly inspired person will be completely illumined from above (top of his head to his toes) and feel as if physically on fire... the in-dwelling of the holy spirit is manifested in this way and powerfully.... the five is also concerned with individual grounding step patterns which can call the power of the earth to bear witness to your combat moment...if you run on your own will be cut off of inspiration, to add the power of the ground to your movement is to truly be a grappler but with the silat twist in that we don't become entangled to the victim... we simply hold them in fashion to shield ourselves from the next in line and also to keep them trapped so when we leave them our movement will render them no longer a threat... we will strike for example one or all of three systems (eyes, throat, legs) in a crippling manner as we leave them... in pukulan lima...for example, we are using five hits to do so... this is a physical expression of a spiritual truth... the essence of silat...

    Silat is a path of perception, it allows a student to spiritually begin to be "aware"...or awakened to spiritual reality the only "true reality"... to become aware of what is coming is to be one step ahead of the enemy in time... you can't defend against what you cannot see or perceive... so we are gaurded by our ability to fight in a blinding blur...while if we sharpen our perception we will see what is coming before it arrives.... pentjak is our form of "sparring" although it is very far from what most think of when sparring is defined in the conventional sense...for us its an encounter arrived at through our stepping towards a blessing in the combat moment... it becomes the lightning and thunder of someones leaving this life to return to his lord... a divine appointment...the encounter is not only with what is with you, for allthe lower self is all you have in that moment... so you had better get whatever is between you and God Almighty removed...what is stealing your timing and balance rythm etc... so that you are self sabotaged you must hunt this down and kill it in your encounter before it kills you... but also you are encountering your assailant... with all his gifts he is bringing to you... your true level of perception in all the five senses mentioned above will be made apparent, also he is your teacher teaching you patience, self restraint, ego-less awareness, and ultimately how much of a dancer you truly are in your steps towards pure inspired devotion... (if you are self concerned or caught in the drama of your mind you will die) so you must enter your pentjak in a sacred manner with a different awareness or you will be the loser...
    for us as drum or gendang warriors the beat and music of traditional silat is calling our movement we dance according to the beat... and when there is no drum we dance according to our own silent zhikr... or song of rememberance of God Almighty which is calling our movement as well as keeping our head clear... we are heart driven by surrendering our minds in this way... this is a spiritual reality in silat absent from most arts... running on their mental perception as if it has something good for you, but its the enemy... which can leave you jammed... and dead, so what we arrive at through inspired heart power is different and powerful it becomes effortless effort... the mind is too slow and reflex speed is even slower... but spiritual perception is our true superhuman inheritance and spiritual station-- state of being... this is what pentjak is about...
    its the thunder that precedes the lightning... lightning is silat... no one can see it... or hear it, the enemy will only feel it... that's why our teacher said,"True Silat will never be seen on "youtube"... its a moment that cannot be captured on film... its outside of the ability to be the five...
    Last edited: May 5, 2011
  5. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Solomon inherited some of the knowledge from that island which went under the waves a very long time ago. The Ark which he was building the temple to house had a blue stone inside which also came from that place.
    In reality alchemy, astrology, magic, knowledge of metals, numerology, the alphabet etc all came from that place and the world inherited it from its survivors.
    Sounds incredible but I have tracked it all the way back like a sniffer dog to its origin and that is what I have come to understand.
  6. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Panca is five in Kawi (old Javanese derived from Sanskrit). Nothing to do with pencak, which is also from Kawi meaning to jump around or move in a martial way.

    Shihabudeen, the idea of silat predates Islam and had absolutely nothing to do with Solomon or any other middle eastern ideas, myths and traditions. So you're talking absolute crap from a silat perspective.

    P.S. I have two balls, the secret hidden meaning of this points to the duality of everything in nature (dwi-murti in Kawi) ... I never realised the great significance of that which dangle between my legs ... I must spread the word! :D
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2011
  7. Shihabudeen

    Shihabudeen Valued Member

    Peace and blessings be with you,

    just as a fist is a fist no matter the art... just as God has infinite names... Yaweh, Allah swt, God, These realities preceded the terms... just as sufism preceded sufis... as its the science of heart purification... the real station of the first pure human being... that combines all inner spiritual practices.... those stuck in their minds full of doubts... and even worse... the mind full of certainty, thier world view will take form according to their view... some will have a mind of stone... or sand... etc... some will witness spiritual reality, and others will be seeking shadows of doubt... deluded and astray from a path of right guidance... following thier lust and arrogant desire.... and ego toxicity... which will sit upon the altars of their heart saying... our wisdom is the highest... they will never accept advice unless it comes from themselves... or is couched according to their own world view....

    the reality of silat is indeed older than islam... for its an aspect of divine attributes... which are eternal not bound by space and time... however this wisdom is the inheritance of all prophets... and those who would follow thier ways.... their footsteps...

    all the tribal teachers... of silat... were engaged in an art for survival and history is witness that, to save the tribes..., the best villiage protectors and gaurdians would face each other as champions of their people and whoever danced their kembangan (Inspired Silat flower dance)perfectly would be called the victor and save the lives of the many... with their sacrifice of inspired movement.... historically we know the first arab muslims... Ali (ra) and others with him practiced the same tradition... allowing a battle of champions to avoid the great loss of lives in war....and its also found in other cultures... he himself had 24 such victories in the battle of Badr...(which was fought in spite of the champions' conclusions) and over 200 recorded and documented duels.... this is the history... and such is the legacy within silat... to this day...

    regardless of those who would deny truth....

    Imam Malik (Qs)one of the wise islamic scholars once said," if I debate with a fool, I will always lose... for he will never accept authentic proofs, but if I debate a true scholar I will win every time... for he is bound by acceptance of authentic proofs and reason."...
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You make a LOT of misleading assumptions based on faith, not facts.

    Imam Malik is also talking out of his ass - there is no such thing as authentic proof in matters of faith or it would not be a matter of faith
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hah..."islamic scholar" and "authentic proof" in the same sentence.
  10. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Actually the European Renaissance would not have happened the way it did without Islamic scholarship.
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    What's that got to do with "authentic proof" and islam?
  12. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Quite a lot, as 'authentic proofs' seem to be fairly important in mathematics.

    Here you go ossifer ;o) ...

    Having said that I re-iterate that what Shihabudeen is saying might have standing with his group or aliran ... but he's putting it as if it applies across to all silat, which is absolute nonsense. Islam (and my opinion of it is irrelevant in this context) has absolutely nothing to do with some other views on silat.
    I don't care what a persons spirituality is (that's their affair), but MAP Silat is a public forum for all types of silat. Proselytisers (what Shihabudeen appears to be doing), just end up annoying people and keeping them away.
    If Shihabudeen or anyone else feels strongly that they need to announce their rapture to the world ... do it on a religion forum.

    Actually Shihabudeen makes a lot of other statements of fact which are not factual ... that I find to be creating an 'orientalism' flavour. I think he's swallowed the whole 'learn the mystic secrets' thing and is showing off his new 'clothes' ... he isn't wearing any.

    ... I am Javanese born and bred in a village ... the above is ... CRAP!

    Shihabudeen ... kalau anda betul orang Batak, ini bukan caranya untuk mempopulerkan silat! Tidak layak membincangkan soal-soal agama di porum sebagai ini. Akibatnya orang akan curiga dengan agenda anda, apalagi yang di-omongin tentang silat menyolok palsu tanpa fakta! And if you're not Batak you must be American? Then stop doing this.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011
  13. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Btw .. w.r.t. the original post, pancaka refers to the burning of a corpse.
  14. nasigoreng

    nasigoreng Valued Member

    Just because the English term "ketchup" is derived from the Malay word "kecap" (soy sauce), it doesn't mean they are referring to the same thing. What is the difference between ketchup and tomato sauce? it's the same thing but people prefer one term over the other because of history or group affiliation.

    The majority opinion is that, as Rebo Paing explained, "penca" or "(p)encak" means
    The founder of the Perpi Harimurti style in Yogyakarta, however, says in an interview that the term "pencak" is made up of "pen" meaning "point or goal" and "cak" meaning "effort" . This person describes "pencak" as meaning "working towards a goal." (from 'Pencak Silat Merentang Waktu' by O'ong Maryono)

    The term "silat" also has several different interpretations. If someone thinks it is derived from "silaturahhim" (maintaining bonds), or whatever the case, good luck trying to change their mind about it.

    I heard the 4 bodyguards story before, except that the fighters were Malay, Chinese, Indian, and Siamese (Thai) and they were protecting Alexander the Great's brother-in-law or something like that. what about the other origins of p.s. being created by a woman watching a monkey fight a tiger? You're not going to say they're wrong, are you? Considering the diversity of p.s. styles, I would give up the idea of a singular origin because it doesn't accurately represent the history and geography of the Indonesian archipelago.
  15. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    This is true!

  16. Shihabudeen

    Shihabudeen Valued Member

    Silat Lineage

    Salaam Alaikum,
    I am representing information from an older system, "The Old School"... approach... but I'm just sharing.... Truth that I've been blessed with and that I am living, it doesn't have to be anyone else's truth... you will be as you will be...

    there are countless ways to understand Silat... I present the one which has been shared with me... historical records are free for everyone to see, wether you are indonesian or not...

    you can google and get educated if you're unaware of "certain" realities....

    My lineage came through the witness of prophets... and the last and final one was from Arabia... wether you believe or accept or not, whatever, makes no difference... just as God Almighty is the higher power within us all even if we all don't agree upon this truth. Silat historically has been traced back through records to the 7th century... before that the records were kept in the hearts of people, in the time of the 3rd Caliph of islam... Emissaries were sent to China to share the faith and this witness, warriors were part of the entourage and they shared their path with pious converts along the way... in Gujarat India... in the time of the 5th Caliph Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz (ra). Sumatra and the Indonesian water trade routes had to be travelled to get to china... these same emissaries (sahabah) had established a colony in Gujarat and they had trade relations with the Sumatran people... such that the King of Sumatra sent a letter to this 5th caliph... asking for him to send a scholar to teach them about the new religion of islam... and specifically islamic law...
    (shariah).... two emissaries were sent and they were descendants of the early islamic caliphs.... their names are in the historical record... as well as the letter I speak of from the king of Sumatra.... to Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz (ra) the leader of the faithful at that time...

    if you check this out on Wikipedia... you will establish these truths for yourself some scholarship may help you to see there is something to what I'm saying...

    and of course as with all truth you are free to accept or not... but the history is there if you wish to see it....

    this is the incrontrovertible record of the islamic sourcing for ancient silat in Sumatra.... there silat is known as silat... outside of the big island they call it pencak silat... the farther out you go from the island of sumatra the less dancelike and more choppy and karate or kung fu like the silats become.

    the same has happened on the american silat scene... true silat kembangan is very rare in america... the music of the gong, drum and war horn are absent as well as the spiritual sourcing... the movements are little more than aerobics.... but true silat is here.... and will eventually grow... so most of what you get when you google silat is "patchwork arts"... teachers of other arts mixing this and that and calling it silat... that's the reality. Authentic Silat speaks for itself, by watching the geometry of their steps you can tell where and what it is... true silat is a wonderful thing beyond words to describe... I know 'cause I've tried

    the definitive work of scholarship on the Indonesian Martial Arts ... was written by Donn Draeger... in this scholarly source by the same name, they state very clearly that all silat is derived from 25 sumatran core systems...

    I teach one of these.

    Peace and Blessings to all warriors living the martial way... I wish you sucess and enjoin you to fight the good fight... over ignorance and darkness wherever you find it...

    Silat Teacher
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It's on wiki? Must be true then........
  18. Shihabudeen

    Shihabudeen Valued Member


    Salaam Alaikum, I only mention wiki for those who aren't so scholarly... its already at your fingertips... you can research the primary sourcings... they are listed....

    How does it feel to be living proof that.. the believer has no questions, for all the answers in the world will never satisfy an unbeliever?
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I own the Draeger book in question and have done so for at least 22 years now

    All the other sources are bunk - loosely based on oral tradition with no supporting data or corroboration.

    And your God is not the same as mine by a long shot, so appealing to a matter than in and of itself is faith based (i.e NO evidence at all) is a stretch to say the least
  20. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    @ Shihabudeen

    When I read your posts Shihabudeen, I get the impression you're a very insecure fellow, as well as being a bit of an exhibitionist (oh my ... watch me, watch me!).

    Because as sure as the Pope being Catholic and all, you manage to slip in how 'wonderful' the lineage of your silat and how it is the original silat, how only the priviliged few can join, and YOU got to join (oh vey!), but everything else (and everyone else) is lesser than what you have ... be by the grace etc. etc ad-nauseum ... but then you feign humbleness interspersed here and there through your post.

    Quite an achievement ... "Chosen-ness Syndrome" I think it's called, but honestly ... your presence to date is like a blow fly from a latrine spoiling a perfectly sane topic.

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