Opening and closing hands at beginning

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by nefariusmdk, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Haha.. glad you enjoyed that! :)

    Yeah, I figure he is ether trolling for his own amusement or he is at that "mystical" stage, which some people seem to get stuck in, sometimes indefinitely, nothing to be ashamed of. Been there and done that myself and on occasion still do, it’s good to have an open mind, but having it open 100%, 100% of the time is an extreme. Balance in all things and no mind is the goal, aint it.. I’m pretty good at the latter, especially when at work :) … but this won’t save your ass in a fight, well, it could weird the opponents out, but that is not a viable and reliable option.
     
  2. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    If you feel that rational debate and logical thinking is muddy,then your thinking must be tantamount to what we used to shovel out of the stanchions and spread on the fields.Your opinion on my thinking is faulty.Go take a course in logic and reasoning.

    Example-


    You said -"I am feeling kinda short right now so I will tell you what your underlying assumption is that you seem unaware of.

    Your underlying assumption is that someone added that movement to the form."

    Illogical statement in the context of my explanation for thinking as I do on that subject.

    Exchange what info? All you do is ask questions,oftimes condescending, and offer nothing.I'm just fine in my rut,rutting season is coming on,dontcha know.

    So give us some info.Tell us the "very good reason" that this hand movement may not-(actually doesn't)- exist in Cheng's as you put it "original form".Which would also imply there is a later version of said form.Which you also haven't provided any evidence for as to it being from Cheng.Whatsamatta,I scare you off 'cause I said I'd contact seniors in Cheng's line-(which would include at least one of his living disciples)-to query them about any evidence about this? Due to your lack of providing such evidence I must conclude at this time that you ain't got any.

    Why don't you just tell Kibbles what reality is since you've got such a good grasp of it,rather than undermining his instructor? You must be quite familiar with his instructor's methods and teachings to know so much about how/what he's teaching Kibbles.

    In your time on MAP you've said/revealed nothing about yourself as to your training background,or in the matter of this thread your knowledge of CMC's lines and their histories.In various posts you've called me a bonehead hater-("Back in the day before you hater boneheads destroyed MAP"was in a reply to a post of mine,so that must include me)
    ,(no idea why I should be called a hater), croteau a scammer,and stated nobody on the site knows anything about MAs.

    So it seems Robert's "a)" applies.

    You have no credibility.And your behavior is simply that of a troll.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  3. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    Actually I got kind of a pinhead. If you knew about Kung Fu you would know why.
     
  4. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    You guys really enjoy talking about me like I am not here huh?

    You say that stuff you describe won't help you in a fight. I am guessing you mean as in actually punching and kicking someone.

    What if I told you the stuff above gave someone the ability to tell when someone who wanted to fight was coming at them? That would help them in a fight. Not in the way you mean, but it would help. The individual receives advance notice of danger so they can decide whether they want to leave before the guy who wants to fight shows up, or they can decide to stay and actually physically fight.
     
  5. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    Which is it?

    You are fine and don't need me?

    Or you want me to give you some info?

    What difference does that make? You are one of those people that believes people who present themselves as authorities because you cannot understand them?


    You are a bonehead. I would bet money on it. You probably think I am being insulting and I am to some degree. I also mean you are a bonehead literally. Your head is very hard and that is why you speak and think the way that you do.

    If you softened up that bonehead you would have a completely different personality.

    I am sorry if it hurts peoples feelings but I don't see anything that demonstrates real honest to god understanding of kung fu.
     
  6. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    You're not hurting my feelings.I'd have to be concerned about your opinion of me for that.

    Sure I'd like some info.I'd like that evidence I've repeatedly requested.It might be of interest to others here also.

    So,how about that info? I'm still open to hearing it if you've got it.
     
  7. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    In case you don’t understand what I was saying:

    massive head = egotism

    Since you are saying I know nothing about Kung Fu, and I would agree with you to a certain extent, then please educate me and others here.

    Thus, far you have not revealed anything about your mastery of Kung Fu, or any details of your training. All you have done is gone around saying that others are wrong and you are right and so far have failed to provide any evidence to support your arguments. Hence, we once again come to the logical conclusion that you have a massive head, or in other words are an egoist (NOTE: actual size of head is irrelevant).

    Yes, if someone comes online and acts like an elitist without backing up what he says with any evidence whatsoever, then it’s generally fun to take the Mickey out of said person regardless whether they are here or not. Furthermore, a message-board/forum by its very nature is not conducive to a “real time” discussion.

    No, I didn’t say that. I didn’t have an option to do so as I don’t see you lay out any argument or idea for any phenomena/method/practice etc. All I see is you going around telling people that their stuff is no good and not providing any evidence to back this up.

    You can tell us anything you like, but if you don’t put your point across clearly and most importantly provide evidence, as well as some historical background about yourself, then all we see is an egoist blowing hot air.

    If you would like to discuss something specific, please state it clearly, and then we can talk. At the moment I am not getting anything from you other then condescending remarks to various respected forum members.
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    what's up Doc,

    I get the feeling he's saying it's one of those things that's implied or hidden in the form. The inner potential or "energy" is there for it, whilst the external form may or may not be. Hence "intrinsic".. Otherwise what he is saying makes little or no sense whatsoever.

    Reading back the original post and what's being discussed the chances of this being correct are nil by the sound of it. The external movement described is too deliberate and repeated and also too distinct and unrelated from the movement pattern it's been added into - the opening.

    If people want to see what's in or not in Chengs form, they need only watch Cheng performing his own form. Who would know better than the originator himself right..?

    To me this sounds like a chi gung type of the thing added in by someone, no more no less really.

    Regards.
     
  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Hey,man.Just huntin' wabbits.

    He needs to justify his statements.Especially "There is a very good reason the movement may not exist in the original form." Which he hasn't.The energetic potential for a flying double sweep is in the form everytime you fold into the kua too,but it's a moot point.

    Your last sentence-yeah,that's all I can figure at this time.

    Oh,and you can't use the word "intrinsic" when addressing me.According to him I don't understand what it means.
     
  10. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    I gotcha. ;)

    That is because I am not a master. That is your word.

    I really "hate" people like you. ;) You cannot hold a conversation about a subject based on what is said. You think something is true if it comes from someone who convinces you that you should believe them.

    You are going to be a slave as long as you bow down to people in suits or who have fancy embossed pieces of paper. You need to learn to think for yourself. You need to learn to actually listen to what people say and figure out on your own if what they said makes sense.

    There have been 3 or 4 messages exchanged. None of them contained evidence did they? Where is your patience? If a conversation does not produce a result in 3 or 4 posts you are done?


    What I have done is be purposefully vague in order to encourage people to think. Instead of thinking I feel most people want to attack me by calling names, or they want to give the excuse they have no reason to think because I have not provided qualifications that make it worth their while to think.

    You are being childish and demanding what you want right this very second. If you could hold on for however long this series of posts takes to play out you would most likely receive what you desire.

    I believe this thread was about a hand movement in the Cheng Tai Chi form.

    I believe there was a question about why someone had added that movement to the form.

    I clearly recall stating "What if the movement was an intrinsic part of the Tai Chi form?".

    From that point on everything fell apart.
     
  11. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    What I say makes perfect sense.

    This is why I am vague. I want to see how people think. Your thinking does not make sense. There is a big fat hole in it. There is no way for me to find that out without forcing you to print your thoughts out in a message by refusing your demands until you do write them down.

    If I gave you the answer like some people say should be done, I would never be able to tell you, "There is a big fat hole in your thinking right here. You should work on fixing that"
     
  12. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    That is because I am trying to force you to think. ;)

    Is it possible to post pictures in these forums?
     
  13. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    So you are happy to tell me ther'es a big fat hole in my thinking, but won't tell me what it is.

    Well, on what I have to go on, I would have to be either making things up or some kind of mind reader.

    I don't really know if you have good intentions or not - to share your thinking or to help others understand what you think.

    At the end of the day it's just what you think, untill you actually demonstrate that you have any valid point all we have is your bluster. Well, I think you are bluffing to put it bluntly. That or what you have to say about it is important to you, but not to me, or anyone else by the sounds of it.

    Trust me, people will get quickly bored of your approach. You really need to either put up or shut up. This isn't a game of poker where you win something. Oh yea, it was you who said you weren't out to "win". You really have a very funny way of showing it.
     
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Were you simply saying qi gong is an intrinsic part of the tai chi form(s)?

    Or in the martial sense,

    are you making the mind blowing observation that closing the hands like that could be making a pluck for example ?

    What can I tell you, I like to play silly games with people.
     
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Sorry,you did not say "what if".

    From your posts-

    post 21

    It is an intrinsic part of the movement

    post 36

    Then I said "recall what I originally claimed. It is an intrinsic part of the movement."




    There is a very good reason the movement may not exist in the original form.

    That does not change the fact the hand movement under discussion is an intrinsic part of the form.


    ------------------
    So you clearly recall stating something which you never actually stated.You should re-read your posts before you make such assertions.

    Still waiting for the info I requested.Really a cut and dried matter.How I think is irrelevant .
     
  16. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    The tone and content of your posts thus far make you come across as if you consider yourself superior. Hence the “egotism” comment. Of course this is purely my subjective opinion, but it seems like it is somewhat shared by others here too. In which case, we can somewhat conclude that this is the impression you give off.

    LOL.. well thanks! :)

    Generally, I think that if you have something to say, you should just say it. Sure, you can and meander around, leading people to eventual conclusions which may or may not be a revelation of sorts, but this approach is for people who can actually achieve such a result. If straight from the outset your attempt to do so is seen for what it is, then the effect is lost. Generally, this approach entails the belief that the individual using it is somewhat superior on some specific point, thus the individual assumes that the recipient of their approach is inferior, can be lead and in turn rewarded with whatever specific point that the individual in question places value on. The value of said point is also an assumption, as in the individual deems it superior in some way or other.

    If you want to demonstrate something to others, and if in fact it is of value, the value of it should become apparent to at least some, regardless of how you try to bring it across. In other words, an actual point, if you want people to accept it as such, must ring true with the people who it is directed at. The way a point is likely to do so, is if it is backed up by evidence or at least provides some sort of inspiration.

    In my opinion, there has been nothing from you that invokes one to one to follow, nor perceive that there is anything of value in what you say. Plus, the tone of superiority in your posts only repels me further from what you have to say.

    Also, I think that which is actually true, speaks for itself. Perhaps this is on different levels to different folk, but it does not need any dressing up.

    In any case, your assertion that “I think something is true if it comes from someone who convinces me that I should believe them” is wrong. Unless one can show evidence or I decide to believe, then there is no convincing me of anything. I think the same is probably true on some level for everyone else, including you.

    Thanks! I look forward to my sub-servant existence!

    Yeah, did what you suggest, but only got hot air. Hence my replies to you ;)

    Sorry, my time is worth more than fuelling your delusion of grandeur. Though, I’m sure you can find someone who will follow you around and call you messiah. If your clever enough about it, you can make a lot of money too. Would that be nice!

    Thanks! I’m sure if you didn’t encourage us we would all just sit there in perfect stillness, aimlessly existing, transfixed at our respective monitors without any purpose whatsoever. Thank you for encouraging us messiah! :p

    Yeah... see above..

    Do you suppose it’s not your fault it all fell apart?
     
  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    jinkan maybe you should start a new thread about what's intrinsic to tai chi forms. maybe start with kai-he (open-close). that's if you want to be constructive

    not even a great jedi like you can get into the mind of this un named person who put this in this particular form. This is bordering on ridiculous, damn did I say bordering, this is ridiculous!
     
  18. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    OH. MY. GOD.

    None of you get it. Not a one of you.
     
  19. jinkan

    jinkan Valued Member

    Only if the person on the receiving end interferes. If they sit back and allow it to happen even though they know what it happening, the process can still go on.

    Blah blah blah!!!!!!

    Insanity.


    See? You are just playing word games to attain some goal other than the one that is supposedly the focus of this conversation.

    I feel sorry for you. It seems that Britain teaches it's citizens to speak like you. All of you treat conversations as games in which one person has to come out on top. The facts of the conversation make no difference. The only thing that matters is that "you win".

    I guess if you like playing games that is OK. If you want to learn about the world you are never going to find out anything with that attitude.


    There it is again. "HA. HA. HA. You don't bother me. Tra la la, Tra la la, Tra la la, la, la........."

    You are like a little child sticking their fingers in their ear and repeating "I can't hear you. I can't hear you. I can't hear you">


    Nope. It is the invaders who took over your country and purposefully destroyed Britain and it's citizens. Those foreigners have worked on making the Britons I am familiar with from the 1970's and 1980's into people like you.

    From educated explorers of the entire Planet Earth to a people playing word games whose economy and country is about to turn Third World.

    Pathetic.
     
  20. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Wow 'jinkan' why didn't you tell us earlier that you are also a historian, sociologist, linguist, economist and a clairvoyant - man we would have treated you with so much more respect.

    :) :) :) :) - Oh this game is fun and anyone can play...
     

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