Opening and closing hands at beginning

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by nefariusmdk, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    Hello, my teacher instructs us that, at the very beginning of the form, when you bring your hands out, you should close them gently (like you were holding a small insect, but trying not to kill it) and inhale. Then, open the hand up and exhale. You should do this 3 times, then bring the hands back, like your hands are skimming the surface of the water, bring em down to your side, etc. etc.

    Where does the opening and closing of hands come from? I've been seeing many videos on forms, and NONE of them have the opening and closing of hands anywhere. I've looked into a few books as well and have come up with nothing.

    I've asked my master, and he'll tell me the martial application of it. But, as far as how it originated, I have no clue. I practice Cheng Man Ching Tai Chi form. I keep hearing that it's an older version of it, because there's so many variations to what I'm learning compared with the forms I'm seeing on the web.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    I always took it as centering your intention before you begin, sort of clear your mind, root yourself, and find your balance. Don't quote me on that, I know it's not exactly a researched scholar's opinion, it's just how I've always seen it, and what I do when I do that movement.
     
  3. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I've never heard of this-you're doing this as you raise,or after you've raised your hands in the beginning?There's certainly no instructions to that effect in any of Cheng's writings I know of,nor do I know of any of his students or their descendants which do this.Whose line does your teacher come from?

    Hat-you're saying you do this before you begin to raise?Is this also Cheng's you're doing?If so,again I've never heard of this-not in Cheng's instructions.

    nef-are you in UK,also?If so,maybe you two have a lineage connection.

    I've not heard of this in any system's form.Sounds like some auxillary exercise which someone decided to incorporate.

    PS-I doubt it's an older version-Cheng's composition is taken from Yang,Cheng-fu, and his other teacher was Chang,Ching-ling-Chang's descendants do no such thing either,from what I've seen.
     
  4. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    Hey El Medico, I first do the shifting of weight: right foot, left foot, then center (equal distribution). I then begin to raise my hands, elbows slightly bent, and my hands are out in front of me, but not going over my shoulders. Next, I inhale and close my hands softly, exhale and open my hands completely. I do this three times, then I bring my hands in slowly, near my shoulders, and then I bring them down until they are at my side.

    I'm here in NYC. Staten Island. My teacher's been very vague about where he learned it. He did give us free copies of Lawrence Galante's book on Tai Chi, and he seems to know him.

    Hatamoto, thanks for your insight. It still bugs me that I don't see anyone else practicing that move, but I'm glad you know of it. My teacher's (semi) retired, and every other instructor there is giving me their variety to the form, which is driving me nuts. I do see a consistency in the instructors that have been there the longest though.
     
  5. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Well,if he just inserted that move maybe he doesn't want to admit that.If you mean he's vague about his TC background that's rather odd-Cheng's lines are pretty transparent and verifiable."There Are No Secrets",or something.

    Thanks for the description,thought that's what you meant,wanted to make sure.

    To the best of my knowledge whatever it is,wherever it came from,that is not part of Cheng's form in any of his manifestations of it over the years.Howe'er,it's interesting that Hatamoto does something similar.

    Oh no-the too many instructors correction train wreck.I saw this once.It ain't pretty.Have you been around long enough to be able to figure out which 1 or 2 of the seniors you'd like to follow?That could be your best bet-"I'm doing it as Mr. Senior Instructor told me to."

    How many instructors do you have in one school?Sounds like there are several.
     
  6. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    I sadly am not doing Cheng Man Ching, but the Taoist Tai Chi which to my understanding seems very heavily based on it (though it is done a bit differently)
     
  7. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    ?????????

    Is this some new fad in the TC world?I've never seen this done by the people from your org here,tho' I haven't observed any of them for 3 or 4 years now.Is that in Moy's book?The one from the late 70s-early 80s?-I don't remember it in there but I didn't spend much time in that volume.If it was in there no one I saw ever did it.

    So you're doing it the same as nef,or you do it before you raise?Just curious.

    As far as I know,Moy's form was created from regular Yang and new Wu,at least that was the info I got from Canadians involved in it years ago.That's what it looks like.I certainly see no influence from Cheng's external form method in TTC,unless they're changing the looks/performance nowadays.
     
  8. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    From what I've seen the Cheng form raises the hands before turning to the side. In Moy's the hands come back down before turning to the side. I didn't stick around for long, the class I went to was cancelled and the only remaining day clashed with my wing chun, so I admit I can't really explain it beyond that as I don't understand it myself, I'm just saying that's what we did and that's how I took it.
     
  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Cheng's-1)the arms raise 2)the wrists straighten 3)the elbows bend & descend 4) the hands & arms descend to sides 5)turn to R as R arm raises w/palm down in front of torso and L arm comes in front of lower torso palm up to create the ol' "holding the ball" position .

    Well,that's your free lesson in the Cheng home study course-sign up now and with the easy payment special instructor package your're guaranteed a black belt in TC in 6 months!Whatever the heck a bb in TC is.But I'll throw in a nice certificate!

    Anyhoo-

    Excepting Chen,most everybody does some sort of raising & lowering the arms before bustin' into the form proper,lots of variations,but nothing like what nef describes w/the hands opening & closing.
     
  10. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    Yeah, I do the opening form too. I learned it as a ch'i manifestation exercise though. Kind of like grounding and centering, then rooting, raising the ch'i with breath, and then pushing ch'i down and through feet with the expiration and hands dropping.
     
  11. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Did you learn the weird hand opening/closing that nef did?BTW,who taught you Cheng's form?
     
  12. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    He has no teacher.
     
  13. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I thought Lou learned some form briefly from someone,it was apps he was getting off films.
     
  14. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    I remember that he said he hasn't taken a class。 :turtle:
     
  15. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    I learned it from a book, but now I'm taking tai chi lessons at the Association for Research and Enlightenment in Va Beach
     
  16. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    Besides the weird hand forms (aka the Apparent opening form, apparent closing form, and hands crossing form) have martial applications.

    Snake creeps down, golden rooster stands on one leg, and now I'm grasping the sparrows tail

    singah whip up! mamasang
     
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Hi Lou.

    Isn't there anything better than Easy TC @ the Cayce center around you?I looked at the teacher's page and he doesn't say anything about any other TC or martial schooling.Easy TC is hardly anything in depth,certainly no martial teachings and no nei gong development.

    Or maybe he's told you folks of any training other than the retail marketing he speaks of?

    I guess if you just want some slow-mo exercise it's no different than most TC places,but as you're interested in the applicative side it seems like a waste of time for you-even a club that did nothing past fixed step pushing but cultivated decent skills in that would be more worth your time.

    Ah well,I think in Easy TC you can probably be an instructor in a very short period.An instructor of slow motion exercise.

    I see there's a Jow Gar school in VB that does TC also.Did you look them up?They might not have great TC, but hey-maybe you'd get turned on to Jow Gar!And they might know of some good TC teaching somewhere near you.

    If you're still sincerely interested in learning how to actualize this stuff beyond your youtube external applications,you're going to need to find someone who teaches at least some good ph skills. Preferably w/nei gong training,but you can't always have everything.

    One does have to bare one's rear end,tho'-something not required in a comfy TC exercise/"meditation" format.
     
  18. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    No, I go through the other instructor. She does a really gentle Taiji class. I'm pretty much there just to pick up new forms. I learned a new Yang short form from her.

    I'm not really interested in hard martial arts anymore. Tai chi sparring and push hands are fun, but I'm not really trying to hurt myself (even though I do cover my tae kwon do kicks about once or twice a week to get some cardio fitness).

    The Jow Gar school is just fine. I've checked them out, sure. I'm pretty much just focusing on my breathing exercise and some weightlifting/yoga. Taiji is what I do in the early morning or around sunset (just did my Qigong set a few minutes ago out back).
     
  19. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    I thought you are a Chinese???
     
  20. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    apparently, so do I


    nope. I'm white as your daddy's undies.
     

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