I did Goju for 7 years - we did a few obscure bunkai with very poor attempts at locks - nothing I'd consider functional grappling.
Not functional grappling? Have you seen Morio Higaonna? His technique is both impressive on it's on right and superbly integrated into hard techniques. As an aikidoka I am obviously no stranger to grappling. If integrated correctly the techniques are quite effective.
If you've only been exposed to "obscure bunkai with very poor attempts at locks" may I ask where you studied for 7 years? The basic premise of goju is balance between hard and soft techniques.
Tell you what, how about you go down to your local amateur boxing gym and get into a fight with a boxer, just in the interests of experimentation. Let me know how it goes. To call boxing brutish compared to Karate is a bit far. Watch karate kumite, then watch a boxing match. Honestly tell me which one looks more technical. Col
Yes - in person. He's VERY impressive. Looking to Karate, ANY Karate, for grappling techniques is like looking to Muay Thia for throws - there are some but very limited. if you want to grapple - study grappling.
Most of the bunkai where not "obscure" - just those trying to fabricate functional grappling. As Karate goes I found it very fucntional. I studied with a student of Teruo Chinen & James Rouseau (sp?) here in England in the late mid 80's.
Boxing For me is one of the best arts around. Its simple ability to be direct and key to a small number of moves make it good. The level of fitness and power is amazing and the stamina is so critical. This is levels most (not all) most Karate fighters never even get close to. Boxing is effective on the street as one shot on the jaw from Jo public and most of us will go down yet a half rate boxer will give you the biggest white flash of your life. Then of course he has hit you again and playing a number on your rib cage. Boxers are real tough medicine for anyone who has not done it and when I have spared with ok boxers because of there devotion to the few key moves I have to alter my gameplan or take more shots to the head than I want. IT HURTS!
I come from a town that is 'boxing heavy.' Several of my friends are boxers, and one of which is very talented to say the least. I have studied Judo, some Muay Thai in my time, but mainly Taekwondo. I often spar with boxers as i see it as good practice. Their strong points have all be highlighted above, particularly there lightning fast and powerful punches and combo's. However i have never been completely wiped out in a spar with them, and dont see them as too much trouble. Keeping them on the end of your foot isn't usually a possibility (what they teach you in TKD) as they come on blisteringly fast and lay into your jaw. Ive read about a very talented Boxer/Muay Thai fighter that entered a Wing Chun class, and boy did they teach him a thing or two. The words 'Just couldn't land a punch' being the most memorable. As fighting arts go Boxing is quite highly street applicable in my opinion, although its still a different game, boxing can teach some useful skills to take on the street.
That's true, and I know your trying to defend Boxing and I totally respect that. So don't think that I'm taking a shot at you when I say this, but boxing has to many rules no groin shots, kindney shots, clinches are broken up, no back hands and so on. But in a real fight there are know rules and this puts you at a disadvantage. If I offended you in any way let me know,because I hate it when people down my Aikido and I know how that feels.
I remember my first experience with Aikido. I walked into a class not very impressed with what I'd seen so far, Goju just seemed so much faster and more aggressive, boy was I surprised =/ I got pinned over and over and over and over, hehe. Very impressed with Aikido and thus far I've taken ten or so classes. Would like to study it a bit more, there are some very useful techniques there, even for a Karateka!
I understand how you feel about aikido, but those who practise it know it works for them, you know it works for you, why do you have to listen to those that diss it? Let them be, it's either their opinion or that the art was simply not for them but it won't change the fact that there are many aikidoka who can take care of themselves. I myself know of 2 students in one of my other classes who were aikidoka, they are damn good at what they do, my respect for Aikido has gone up since then. Someone's opinion on a forum is'nt going to change that. On the other hand why do you have to make generalisations about boxing? Your simply going down to their level by doing so. Boxing is a good art dedicated for punches, it does'nt necessarrily incorporate everything but it's the best at what it does same as Aikido. |Cain|
When I was a little kid the German boxers I watched would kill most Martial Artists I have seen fight. Even our Sensei has strong roots in boxing and when I put it in to use in Kumite it really can nab those guys. Boxing is a very effective art that can take any idiot street fighter.
Street fighting is an art of its own, and the best at it are not idiots. Shows you have limited knowledge of real streetfighters. Im not talking about people who start pub brawls, or shout at people for looking at them down the street either: This book may be of interest These guys put down professional boxers for sport, period.
You must be careful to not mix up the sports of boxing, and of MA in general with a real fight. And now I speak of men of the same physical and mental ability. The skills, strength, and stamina gained in boxing give great advantage on the street provided the fighter takes just a minimum of care about kicks. Knees, the boxer generally knows about. It is similar to a grappler in a UFC contest. Either the boxer or the grappler can take over the particular contest, by taking away the favorite tools of the other fighter. In the UFC contest the grappler has the advantage over the boxer. On the street or bar with just a little care the boxer has a chance. Here I assume neither is using the other's arts or is particularly knowligible of them except to be aware of them.
Reply from traditional Martial Arts i have studied karate for over three years and dabbled in TKD and a TINY bit of Judo, i thought that my sparring skills were quite good, i could score hits on most of the higher grades at Kumite. unfortunatly due to work i couldnt attend karate on the night the sparring class was on, so i found a Boxing Gym and decided to start. its been a Month and in that time i have gotten REALLY fit, the skipping and endurance conditioning is better than nearly anything i have done in karate. not only that but im getting "cut" as people call it. the continuous bag work, the proper bags and the smaller accuracy training "crazy bag" have increased my punching power and accuracy. and my sparring is getting better and better, boxing teaches you how to react to flurries of punch's and attacks, which helps with composure under pressure, this is particularly true in the non-contact or sports sparring based styles. where in these styles you cannot full contact shot to the head etc, with boxing head gear you can practice this without fear of injury and you learn the true problem of what happens when you are hit rather than when you just get a slight tap or a fist that stops a few inch's in front of you verdict- every martial artist can gain from doing some basic training in boxing for fitness and sparring skill, it doesnt hinder your additional skills, just compliments them.
All I can say as a Shotokan Karate student is boxing is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen, athletically, self defense, absorbtion of punishment, footwork, combining attack and defense into one move. I think any Karateka could benefit from boxing training and the other way round. The only reason I don't do boxing training is I don't think I'm hard or fit enough I respect it that much. Maybe one day. One of the guys from our class started boxing, I asked him what it was like - he said "It hurts". I would never ever fight a boxer if I could at all possibly help it. The only chance I'd have is to kick him in the groin on the way in. And they move so fast, you'd be seeing three groins. Go for the middle one, I suppose. And suddenly you are hit by what feels like a passing anvil going at 60 miles per hour.
Oh and you say earlier " how woudl they cope with a side turn kick" - probably just walk through it and knock your head off. Edit - and I suspect it wasn't Tyson you saw in those fights rather a shadow of himself getting beat up for a pay packet basically . I would have liked to have seen him in those fights when he early twenties or so years old.
