The similarities between bare knuckles boxing and karate, old bare knuckles boxing even had a form of kime, read championship fighting Jack Dempsey. Championship fighting - Jack Dempsey http://www.freecirclefighting.com/jdbook.pdf What do you guys think? ON GUARD BOB MOHA (MIDDLEWEIGHT) LOWER BLOCK & COUNTER
Ha Ha Ha do you expect picture perfect stances when your really fighting, are you going to drop into a text book horse stance, then guys you dont understand what stances are for with comments like that. Hate to have you as a back up on the street.
I try to have as good a stance as possible when I fight. Unfortunately, nothing in any of these pictures resembles a good fighting stance. And for the record, I would NEVER use a horse stance. Ever. From your choice of pictures here and your comments above, it is quite clear that YOU are the one who doesn't understand what stances are for. If the stances you train in suddenly go out the window and become completely useless in a real fight, then I suggest you find stances that actually work and resemble reality. I'd hate to have to back you up on the street.
For the record, they're not really fighting. In each of those three pictures, they're posing and holding still for a camera. Those were what they considered to be ideal, textbook-perfect boxing stances. I've gone back and forth on whether old-school boxing would actually look like karate when it was in motion. You can only tell so much from still photos. Shame they didn't have video cameras and YouTube in the 1890s.
I have no issue with those 'stances' - they are no better or worse than any other freeze frame posed shots I've seen in Karate books. If the objection was to th eleaning forward - biomechanically that is the best way to resist opposing force at close range and deliver a more powerful strike. Technically in Karate, just like in Aikido, there is no kamae, there are no real stances. You are taught momentary positions that indicate good platforms for elements of particular techniques, but the reality is that your position is never fixed. I used to think like Omicron reference horse stance, but the more I find myself engaging against a resisting opponent in full contact work, with side on attacks and joint manipulation techniques, the more I find myself dropping into this position for control and stability. Naturally it is not a 'perfect' sanitised for camera position, but it is closer to horse stance than any other 'fixed' stance.
Ignorance. This style of boxing didn't die out. It changes and evolved so much it became modern boxing.
KIBA DACHI not too far from what JWT is saying.2nd photo just before dropping into kiba dachi to empower the lockAs jwt says we shall not remain in the "stance" but move on to the next attack.
Stances are for learning correct and useful body position(s) to use during physical confrontation. In many martial arts, forms have become so codified and idiosyncratic that they don't even remotely resemble something that could actually be effectively used in a combat situation. Too often they are simply practiced for the sake of the stance itself, rather than its benefits and applications. Fair enough. I can't comment on what works for you and what doesn't, but personally I see little use in such a low stance. Semantics. For all intents and purposes, this style of boxing is dead. It changed and evolved into what we have today, sure, but this style itself no longer exists. Says who? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFdL5VkcQM&feature=related"]YouTube - Bob Fitzsimmons vs. James Corbett[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUjVK6Lsj28&feature=related"]YouTube - Old Boxing Video[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5clfV1gZV0A&feature=related"]YouTube - Bob Fitzsimmons VS Bill Lang 1909[/ame]
Hey omicron great clips thanks for posting. old bare knuckle boxing or the Art of Pugilism started changing when gloves were introduced as the gloves got better and better were the boxers could actually hit each other in the head without breaking their hands the distance got closer and closer until we have what we have today. The thing is many technqiues/strategies in todays boxing couldn't be used on the street, that is the way they take advantage of the pillows on their hands, this option doesn't exist in bare knuckle confrontations.
Nothing wrong with those stances really. Bare knuckle had a lot more wrestling elements with it, as if they couldn't score the KO early on it usually was a lot of wrestling in the later rounds because the hands took a lot of punishment (for those of you who've sparred with bare knuckles, you know from experience that they take a beating). Foot sweeps, cross-buttocks throws, clinching, etc. were also in the curriculum. As far as the stances, compare them to what you see in Kyokushin Karate (another bare knuckle fighting art) and you'll see many fighters using similar stances to those in the first picture. At the time boxing was still greatly influenced by its fencing roots so you'll see a lot of fencing still in it. I recommend "The Manly Art" and "Bare Fists" if you want to look more into bare knuckle boxing.
That is the strangest thing I have ever read on this site????? The newspapers over the years,have many articles about muggers attacking old guys and the old guys defending themsevles with boxing they learnt in the army/school/boxing club In my humble opinion,in a one on one self defense situation that does not involve wepons,you cannot go wrong with boxing.
Hi TOB What i meant to say is you cannot cover using pillows on your hands on the street, dont get me wrong i love boxing i'm a big fan of it, the strategies using the big surface area of the glove thats what i'm talking about.
Great vids Omicron. Depends upon what situations you find yourself in. For controls - it is the superior position, especially controls against dynamic/alive attacks from blades. I frequently find myself pinning the opponent's arm in the crease of my waist and thighs, hanging on to the blade wrist for dear life with one hand while hitting the head over and over with the other hand. It's not the stance you are likely to ever find yourself in for Shotokan kumite (or Jiyu Kumite in general) or for long range fighting, but for close quarter fighting, particularly for limb and balance manipulation from the outside, whether high or low it is one of the most common positions. It took Aikido to teach me why kiba dachi is so common in Karate Kata (including the kiba dachi that have been replaced by kokutsu dachi).
I've always found the lack of mobility in low stances outweighs any of their benefits. But, to each his own...
It works if you train to do it. Look at Machida. But people who are used to moving in a high stance will be slow if they just drop a few inches and don't change anything else. The reverse is also true...I bet if you made Machida use a high and narrow stance, he'd be remarkably slow and cumbersome on his feet.
Dan Inosanto referred to those postures in his JKD instruction vid [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeLWbX7hlDc&feature=related"]YouTube - Bruce Lee Concept Lesson (Jeet Kune Do) - Part 2 [ 3 ] 4 5[/ame] And then some....
If you check out many of the boxers who fought in the old styles, they used lots of clinching, and specifically, they used lots of overhooks, with a few different strategies. They would do things like bring the opponents hands and gloves between their bicep/tricep area to hold so their opponent couldn't hit. THey would gain the overhook and come over the top to deliver hard shots. One of the masters of that style of boxing was Jack Johnson, reigning champ for years. He would keep away, come in punching, and clinch up, as these guys did in their matches. They were dirty boxers, always going for the overhooks. It makes me wonder, if Karate, and sometimes Wing Chun styles and training techniques show similarity to old style boxing, why Karate and Wing Chun sparring doesn't look more like old style boxing.
