O Soto Gari

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Keikai-Tsutsumi, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    Just wondering how your style does O Soto Gari.

    Do you use a straight leg to sweep the attacker's leg or do you do more of a back kick and strike with a bent leg at the knee level to lift the attacker?
    __________________
     
  2. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter


    Use your sweeping leg in a "C" motion thru the uke .....like you are sweeping the floor with a piece of cloth attached to your big toe ....and the toe must be pointed downwards ....

    The Back kick version sounds more of an O Soto Garuma (PIC ") than O Soto Gari (PIC 1)

    regards Smurf
     

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  3. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    Do you ever find that with the downward sweep you drive the attacker's foot further into the ground? This can happen if the defender is not far enough behind the attacker ad the sweeping leg is still on a downward arc when it connects.

    The only problem with that is the attacker's leg can be broken; no problem in a fight but no good for training. After a couple of students had broken legs we changed to the back kick version to lift the attcker off the ground.

    How far do you bend your head toward the ground when doing an O Soto Gari.
     
  4. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Try to use the sweeping foot in a circular motion as opposed to a linear motion ...hence the reference to drawing a C on the mat with your big toe .....I find that opening the hips up by opening the support foot away from the uke can assist with this motion ..

    I will try to bring the camera to dojo on monday and demo a few for you ..

    regards

    Smurf
     
  5. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    It was a circular motion that I was refering to. The leg describes an arc and up until the lowest point of the arc the leg is travelling in a downwards direction. If it strikes the attacker's leg before it goes past the lowest point then the effect is to drive the attacker's foot further into the ground thus increasing friction and so making the foot harder to get off the ground.

    To have the throw work with a striaght leg reap the defender must be in a position past the attacker's foot in order to have their leg connect on the upwards part of the arc thus friction is reduced and the throw happens.

    We tend to unbalance the attacker so that they have all their weight on the leg we reap so we lift the attacker off the ground with the leg driving in an almost back kick at their knee level. I tend to teach the defender to "put their foot on the ceiling and their head on the ground as they reap". Makes for a hard fall.

    I too will video so we can compare.
     
  6. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Sounds good to me ..

    Smurf
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Foot on the ceiling head on the ground. Sounds like inverted principles of tenchi nage to me.
    We (aikido riai) cut one side of the opponent to the rear side kuzushi (backward to the side) and thrust the arm under the throat and down over the shoulder while extending the arm on the side we intend to reap.
    Don't have a picture (for once!) but you can see the angles in this one of tenchi nage.

    Had I extended his right arm backward his weight would have been over the edge of his right foot and I would be closer so as to allow osotogari.


    regards koyo
     

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  8. righty

    righty Valued Member

    I have read the above posts and I am still having trouble understanding how someone leg could be broken using this technique. Our club uses...pretty much whatever works for people and for most it is some with a bent leg for pretty much the entire movement the movement which is what you seem to be saying could result injury which is why I am interested.

    How where the legs broken?

    I am also thinking that a back kick may be even worse. This is becuase my own back kicks have pressure going downwards throughout the movement. It's most likely that I am thinking of a different movement and it's hard to explain when there is probably quite a subtle difference.
     
  9. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    When in doubt. Look to the master.
    Kyuzo Mifune Osoto gari.
    I was told there are no secrets in martial arts BUT if there were it would be the ability to unbalance backwards to the side.

    regards koyo
     

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  10. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    We actually stopped unbalancing in that configuration (both of Mifune's hands are on uke's right arm/shoulder) - this tends to shift uke's leg outward, so you run the risk of slamming your leg into the side of their knee and destroying it. For safety sake it's better to unbalance to the rear by cutting through on the opposite side of their body. Works just as well and it keeps uke 'square' so all they have to worry about is the breakfall.

    A nice pic nonetheless :)
     
  11. jl5000

    jl5000 Valued Member

    Looking at the pic, it looks as though Kyuzo is more unbalanced than his uke.
     
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I can see how it would appear so however if you look at the rear kuzushi, Mifune is "sacrificing" his own balance in that direction to gain the leverage for the throw after having unbalanced uke.

    Mifune was tiny and depended entirely on timing, unbalancing and "maximum effecr for minimum effort" perhaps the finest judoka ever.Ueshiba of aikido and Kano of kodokan judo said so.

    regards koyo
     
  13. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    righty

    The leg can be broken if the reap catches the leg on the downward part of the arc. The lower leg can be broken. We had a couple of students have this happen to them. One had the a complicated fracture with the bone showing.

    koyo

    Your description of the unbalancing is exactly how we do it. A circular motion with one arm on the attacker's arm and the other on the throat. Bring them onto one foot and take it away. In doing the throw we try to drive our head below the level of our waist to gain maximum lift with throwing leg. A devistating throw results as the hand on the throat goes most of the way to the ground.

    The image of Mifune Sensei shows he has a bent leg. Interesting.

    jl5000

    I think you will find Mifune is very much in balance.
     
  14. kensei1984

    kensei1984 Panda Power!

    I find that when I do the C motion style reap, I tend to sometimes be on the nice end of a reversal technique, the lifting of a straight leg tend to make my posture rise, if they are strong enough they can take me down instead.

    If uke is unbalanced right back, and his legs are not so bent underneath him, the C motion sweep will do fine. But if the legs are bent underneath, I find that yes, you CAN drive the leg into the mat and cause a lot of pain or worse, injury, I think I did that one time to Archibald in shiai.

    With practice, chambering the leg to prepare for a good back kick to blast the thigh off the ground works very well, and keeps your body in a positive forward position, making it very hard for a counter, if it is done with good timing.
     
  15. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Oh yea I remember that. Right after Dino mopped the floor with me too. Not a great day for my poor body, lol.

    jl5000 - if you look at any throw you'll see that tori is always unbalanced at the end. You are ALWAYS sacrificing your own balance to throw uke.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2008
  16. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    Not when de Jong Sensei taught me. Unbalance your attacker and KEEP your own balance unless you are doing sacrifice throws. O Soto Gari is not one of them I'm pleased to say.
     
  17. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Its time for pics and vids and an analysis of the way the technique is being done ..

    folks post up what you have and lets sort the chaf from the grain ...

    Smurf
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Basic principle ALL techniques enter triangularly control in a circle execute solid MAINTAIN your balance.Anyone losing their balance during a grading I would fail.

    entering triangularly could be any of the irrimi techniques including osoto gari.

    regards koyo
     

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  19. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter


    Good GRAIN ..thanks Koyo


    Smurf:D:D
     
  20. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Ok probably a poor choice of words on my part. Perhps I should have said 'you are in an unstable position at the end of each throw'. Find a vid of a seoi nage and pause it halfway through - tell me tori is strong and stable. If he is good he will, as koyo said, MAINTAIN his balance the whole way through, but there is certainly a time where, from a pure mechanical standpoint, he will be easily unbalanced.

    Not that it matters when uke is flying through the air with the ground rushing up to meet him, but I was trying to point out why Mifune looked 'unbalanced' in the pic.

    Once again my apologies for my poor wording.

    Once I have my vid up you'll see me doing O Soto Gari against a front kick, so you can tell me if I'm doing it wrong haha. I watched it the other night and wished I'd made more of a kicking action with the leg but oh well...

    Best regards - Jon
     

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