No Nonsense

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by puma, Jul 21, 2009.

  1. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    I agree. In the face of a troll such as yourself one should do well to remain calm.

    A lot of useless dribble snipped. If you really want to know (to paraphrase Cloudz and FQ) just go and do.

    Well as a Javanese I can tell you that Martial Arts was WELL known in England for hundreds (if not thousands) of years before the '60's. Your prejudice is showing.

    The only real answers any of us will appreciate is when we can feel it for ourselves. Anything else is hyperbole. Talking won't help you to arrive at the insight you purport to seek. Talking MIGHT provide some sign-posting on the road to understanding.

    Now go and do something ...

    Fire Quan & Cloudz ... great posts I read of yours in this thread! Totally agree with you in the main.
  2. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Last night I learned how to do a posture called an 'illusion twist' - a cross between a butterfly and a 360 degree lotus (reverse cyclone). It's not all that hard, actually, if you can do the component elements already. After a few goes I could do it in to a very neat standing landing, creating a nice look for the posture.

    There's no reason - I just wanted to tell someone.

    The articles section has ground to a halt, due to Saz being immensely busy, so I've put my articles - new articles - in my journal instead. After all, they're more meandering blog entries than articles.

    As it happens, Puma, I think you're right to ask questions. If everyone has a different answer, you're right back where you started! Trusting your own judgment.
  3. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Thanks Fire-quan. I will ignore the mindless, senseless rant before your post.

    Is there a video showing the move, or something similar to the one you describe? Not doing Tai Chi I don't understand the terms and language sometimes used, so unfortunately I don't understand what you are describing.
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    No one thinks he's wrong to ask questions. But like he can judge others on their replies he can be judged too on what and how he asks and his reactions to said replies.

    Are there any more questions about the martial art and practice of tai chi chuan that you would like answered puma.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  5. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    "Go and do" is good advice that a dufus-head doesn't generally act on ... and it takes a dufus-head to recognise one. I definitely recognise that you are one :hat:.

    OK, so I've hurt your feelings. I've bruised your delicate sense of self, but let it go ... hehe.

    All this talk about what is or isn't taiji and all these labels don't really get anywhere. Maybe you should understand what is a martial art first?

    Did it REALLY only arrive in Britain in the '60's? I am amazed! I thought Pictish warriors were fighting and had a warrior ethic back before the Romans ... my British history is not much.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    hey Rebo,

    i think he was asking about the spread of tai chi in the uk in that era - sixties/ seventies rather than general martial art of whatever variety.
  7. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Thank you Cloudz. I enjoy reading your solid posts on this board.

    ... and Fire Quan, your post # 16 (on this thread) I was referring too, is pure gold. So true, so true ... in a nutshell ... hehe!
  8. Twonk

    Twonk New Member

    Hi Guys
    As a newb to Tai Chi with a Karate background my experience with trying to find good TCC may be relevant. I have 35 years of Shotokan behind me and got fed up being battered by youngsters with big long legs and decided enough was enough.
    I needed something to continue training in and fancied trying Tai Chi without knowing much about it other than the forms looked good and I have always enjoyed kata.
    The first class I joined was totally Beijing 24 & 48 and though I learnt these forms and they looked good, there was never any explanation of what we were doing and after two years I decided there had to be more.

    I found a class advertising martial TCC and decided to give it a go. However, it was still just more form again with no reference to applications except for the odd cr*p demo of basic self defence. Then I found out he had a MA class which you had to be invited to join. I eventually got to this class which was a joke. Basically bad Karate with leaping and jumping around the floor doing stupid ineffective kicks, it was a complete expensive rip off.
    I decided I'd have one more go and found another class, this was different and though at the start I wasn't impressed, (because I didn't understand what I was looking at) it was so different to what I had already seen I decided to stick with it.
    I wasn't impressed because this guy was not bothered impressing anyone and just got on with teaching. Coming from Karate there was no way without actually joining in I was ever going to understand what was going on. Tai Chi and Karate are poles apart, virtually complete opposites. I have had to spend the last 2 years trying to get softer and I am only now beginning to get it.
    Our teacher also will not demonstrate what he can do,(he has no interest in what people think) even if pushed and I was a bit cynical about some of the punches or kicks, and I could well understand someone from a Karate background thinking "this is rubbish". It is only recently that we are now being shown what these can actually do and though it looks nothing is very effective.
    However, now that we are going back through the form in detail with applications, posture testing etc. and I have felt his power I am totally hooked and love every minute of it.
    In conclusion as has been stated by others the only way to judge is to find a good class and give it some time.
  9. puma

    puma Valued Member

    No, you didn't hurt my feelings. You actually made me chuckle by making yourself look a prat. As Cloudz pointed out to you, you misunderstood. Maybe I should learn what a martial art is? Hhhhmmm, or you could learn to read before you go off on one.

    Twonk, nice post. When you say you feel his power, do you mean when he hits you, or a bag, or through push hands? Both maybe?
  10. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I know. I know! Right everyone - handbags down, bucket and spades out! I think we all need a damn good holiday!
  11. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    You already were ignoring it. You ignored it as you read it. Now you're letting me know that you're ignoring it... 'Hey, I want you to know I'm ignoring you...'

    Boo ho!

    Lol - I mean boo hoo. Boo ho is what a ghetto serial killer says.


    It's not a taiji move, it's a fancy jumping kick. It has nothing to do with this thread at all. I just wanted to shamelessly plug my blog - I should probably re-phrase that - and just tell someone that I can do an illusion twist. They're not that hard, actually.

    So anyway, what do you want me to tell you? Oh yeah, moving slow is for meditation or something, or hocus pocus. See you at the beach - I'll show you an illusion twist there. Forty years old and getting fancier wushu every week! Woo hoo! Screw fight application - I just wanna look cool as damn it!

    Hey man - justify your training to me! Er... no.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  12. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    By the bye, Puma, you know, as far as I'm aware, I haven't inuslted you in any way. In fact, I've gone out of my way a couple of times to spend time answering questions for you. Don'tget me wrong - I take total responsibility for my own decisions, and I'm not in any way offended personally; I just note that you're very quickly insulting people who haven't insulted you.

    If you want to learn about other people's perspectives, that doesn't mean you have to believe them or accept them - learning something new just means that it's a perspective you weren't aware of before. But I think you really just want to reinforce what you already believe, by attacking anyhting which doesn't accord.

    So, at first glance, you seem like, say, someone who might be asking other people about their beliefs, to learn something new, but actually your interest is in attacking those beliefs, to reinforce something you already know. That's not the same as genuinely learning about other people's ideas. It's like asking a man about his beliefs, seemingly out of interest, then launching in to a tirade on how Jesus will make them burn in hell.

    That's when you end up spitting on people who made an effort to stop and answer your questions... you only wanted them to stop in the first place so that you could spit on them. Which, when you think about it, is a pretty crappy way to live.
  13. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Here are some videos which I think demonstrate the Chinese martial arts theory of the relationship between slow isometric movement and fast movement. One shouldn't think it's simply a taiji specific thing, or just a 'slow forms' thing. Like many things in wushu, it has multiple aspects, but one of them is as an actual training mechanism - a stage in training, involving physical improvement of technique, posture and body. It's a stage in a methodused by a number styles, and one even finds it in contemporary wushu in certain movements.

    Some times we see the slow movement, then sometimes a faster version. The yiquan lad punching shows the very specific, characteristic yiquan movement which stops dead rather than swinging through, which one can see being trained in any good level, slow, yiquan shi li.

    Xin Yi:

    [ame=""]YouTube - Wu Qiuting[/ame]


    [ame=""]YouTube - Yiquan - China training trip 2000[/ame]

    Wang Binkui - from about 3.45 he demonstrates pretty much the perfect acheivement of the true wushu method of moving with complete isometric mojin/tension/relaxation balance - you can almost feel the sensation of moving in water just by looking at him.

    [ame=""]YouTube - Wang Binkui Part 1[/ame]

    Wang Shangwen - well over weight, but his movement is virtually perfect. Old school yiquan - more heavily influenced by bagua and xing yi, as opposed to Yao line, which is more influenced by Western boxing:

    [ame=""]YouTube - Wang Shangwen DCQ 12[/ame]


    [ame=""]YouTube - Казуми Додзе[/ame]

    Cui Rui Bin:

    [ame=""]YouTube - Cui Ruibin & Liu Pulei Documentary 4[/ame]

    Yang Li Sheng:

    [ame=""]YouTube - Master Yang Lin Sheng's amazing Kung Fu abilities and unique style.[/ame]
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2009
  14. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Fire-quan, I think you are confused. I said I would ignore the rant BEFORE your post. The post by Rebo Paing. Or are you him as well? If not, I don't know where you are coming from.


    Will have a look at the videos tomorrow when I have more time.
  15. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, then I have egg on my face.

    Once, I gave this geezer a total rant, and really let rip on what an s o b I thought he was for posting such a vile load of tosh - and normally, he did. Only, this time, he just replied 'all true, only, it wasn't me who said that.' Fortunately he was all right about it.

    Well, I don't know Puma. If you want realisitc demonstrations of taiji, from people who follow the orthodox taiji method, well, those are few and far between. If you want an explanation for the slow movement - which was the original point - then, the most basic explanation is that it is part of a training method, used extensively in Chinese martial arts, best expressed as a progression, usually between fixed, standing posture, then slow movement of the posture - to condition the body for the movement - then a faster version, then a final explosive version. Whether that works in practice or not is difficult to prove, because no one who trains like that can ever 'do' the movement without doing it the way they trained to do it. All you'll ever have is anecdotal recommendations that the method works.

    And then, added on to that, there are other elements to it that some people feel are worthwhile doing.

    As for who is going to demonstrate the greatness of their stuff... well, of course, first and foremost are all those people who have taken honours, claims and titles to themselves...

    I don't look down on anyone asking questions. Just, if the question is really an attempt to force people to justify what they do, I don't see any point. If it's to justify what they say, well, then maybe that's different. If it's to justify what they claim - well, whole different ball game.

    Tell you what I think - I think you've been given the full gamut of explanations. We know, in various terms, what the taiji method is. To avoid confusion, better to say now that we've moved on to, who can demonstrate that the taiji method works. And the answer is, well, all those who have taken honours to themselves, such as titles, or wide public acclaim for claims of doubtful skill - i.e. start with the famous, local taiji teachers, and ask them to show skill that matches any grand public claims they've made.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2009
  16. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I'll tell you who's first - Red Kite. You won't ger much more local than that. I just read her tell the user 'Chof' that he wouldn't beable to hit her, because she knows qi gong. That, to me, is a completely unbelievable public claim of near enough magical martial arts skill.
  17. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    I didn't say any such thing and made no reference to Qi Gong.

    My point was that chof, in my opinion, has probably gained his 'knowledge' from books.

    My post read.....

    [ Lol, you wouldn't get to hit me. Because I don't get my 'knowledge' from books and the internet like you do.

    You need to read the next chapter after qi cultivation.]

    As ever, you seek to twist others words.
  18. Slovenly Zhang

    Slovenly Zhang Valued Member

    Well, it's nice to see things havn't changed since I went away... The bitching and childish sniping is still present! :rolleyes:

    Onto the topic at hand:
    A1: Internal connection comes from adhering to the many principles of Taijiquan, such as the 6 harmonies (3 external, 3 internal). To get an idea of the principles involved, I direct you to read Yang Chengfu's "10 Essential Points", which directs the practitioner in key elements regarding posture, structure, mental focus and more.

    A2: By watching someone demonstrate Taiji Form, you can only get an idea as to whether they are good at demonstrating that Form. You can also get an idea as to how connected they are, how rooted, how relaxed. You can look to see if someone is moving from the Center, to see if they are clearly distinguishing between solid and empty. You can see if they are well rooted, or if they are unstable.

    A3: Yes! You do indeed speed up at a later stage - once you can intergrate all of the components of the Neigong, Jibengong, the 10 Essentials, mind coordination, breath control... Once you can coordinate these correctly within every movement and transition in the form, then you do indeed start to speed the form up.

    A4: You look at pushing hands as if it is some kind of demonstration of "fighting", which it is not. The purpose of pushing hands is to develop the coordination of all the skills you have learned from the form with a partner. At later stages, you start to incorperate applications, throws, locks into the pushing hands.
  19. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, that really takes the biscuit! You said it, then slander me, as if I'm responsible for the daft things you say about yourself.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2009
  20. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    That's bitching and sniping. Irony, huh? And you wondered where it all came from.

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