So what are you thinking so far? I bet Fire Quan and his strange agenda has confused you. Puma, I think its time for you to elaborate on the extent of your exposure to TTC. I mean, what styles are you doing, what does a class entail? I'm thinking that you are in a class thats based spending most of your time doing the hand form (which makes you main stream).
Sorry Puma, but some of your replies are definitely confused- you say you are interested in "all aspects of the art and training" and "i don't want explanations that don't mean anything" in the same message! Some (most!) aspects of MA (especially the internal arts) require knowledge gained by doing, because they're based on how your body feels/responds to certain physical and mental processes. Chinese philosophy has tried to define and describe theses feelings and effects (what does happen when you stand in one position for hours at a time? Are the burning sensations or feelings of mental expansion(?) real?). All of this stuff is part of the art, take it or leave it. If you are not gaining any further understanding of this stuff from your Sifu, or from regular training, or even from MAP, then either everyone is very bad at communication or you really do need to study a different art, one where the bits that mean something are easier for you to grasp. I don't mean to insult your intelligence but you seem to be resisting something so hard, i just wonder why.
Hi Embra - I have some articles up - and also one that has been waiting for some time to be cleared, and maybe won't go up. If it doesn't then others won't go up either, because I wanted to present my ideas in a systematic way. As for being partisan, FQ can only be FQ, and wouldn't be FQ any other way. Animal state of awareness is a fascinating area for me. Many of the things in traditional shamanic belief systems that we consider primitive are actually very advanced mechanisms of re-claiming animal states of awareness. For example, experiments by Skinner and others show that animals make connections between things in what we could consider a superstitious way - such as a dog associating lifting its paw with receiving a treat. Animals exist in the perfect no-thought state. They treat everything as significant - much as those who deeply believe in omens do. They take everything at face value - an advanced skill for those who utilise altered perceptual states, involving dis-associating one's awareness from the reason centre of the brain. WIld animals never make a move without considering it a life or death decision - a true warrior state of awareness, which means that they are in that state 24 hours a day. The quality of a true master is an animal like state. Some people peceive it as a kind of psychopathic state. It's not - it's the animal awareness state. But, the real difficulty is in training both aspects of us - the advanced reason centre, which is our special gift as humans, and the animal centre - which is our heritage as animals - and training both to be as powerful as they possibly can be. My reason centre is more Richard Dawkins than Richard Dawkins, but my animal centre is constantly being trained to do all of the things listed above, and fluidly accepts all kinds of percpetual shifts and feelings that other skeptics wouldn't utilise, including those trained and explored via zhan zhuang.
Well then I say, absoloutely, I know what I'm talking about. All your concerns and questions are valid. You want to know why people use slow movement - you can'tpossibly get the answer from people who don't know. They can guess - but they can't know. One thing no one can do is force the explanation to conform to pre-appointed expectations; you have to be open to hearing the explanation. When people talk about zhan zhuang and slow movement, one shouldn't necessarily think that they only do that kind of training. In taiji and yiquan, for example, it's only an aspect of training - a core aspect, but never the less, only an aspect. Intensive practical fight training must also accompany it. Literally millions of people practice zhan zhuang and slow movemnt skills, but with no martial arts or martial benefits whatsoever - they simply explore the activation of higher states of awareness (I don't mean spiritual states, I simplymean deeper,more tangible sensations of mind/body sense) of the central nervous system - although, in their paradigm in many instances, they see it as activation of qi meridians, and describe the improved sense of well being as clearing or strengthening the flow of qi in those meridians. What really matters is that they use a visualisation/paradigm that they can take at face value, so simply carry on with the training - not whether one description is true or not. Only fanatics of one kind or another really focus on whether one is true or the other to the exclusion of actual result. What you want to know is does the zhan zhuang and slow movement get a result. I say yes, but I also know that it's impossible to separate one kind of training from another in me - what I attribute to zhan zhuang and shi li might have come from other areas of training - I can't go back and disentangle and do it all again. However, I think it really has exponentially improved my level - and not only fight level, but my forms level as well has improved incredibly. Again - it's not tha I haven't done intensive practice in forms - just recently, I have. What it is is that when I was young, and training wushu under a great Chinese champion, I couldn't get any where near the level I am now, despite intensive coaching and five days a week training. But, all the time, I had the 'perfect ideal' of the correct movement in my head - the memory of my coach - as clear as anything. I could look at someone, and know if they were good or not - I just couldn't do it properly. But somehow, the activation of my nervous system through zhan zhuang and shi li has given me a much finer motor control - and narrowed the gap between the ideal movements in my memory, and my body's ability to reproduce them. That's why I say formsof all kinds are a cinch, when the state of mind is right, and yet, 'state of mind' includes the mystical sounding idea that the whole body becomes an extension of the mind. Usually, with ideas like that, the reason needs more concrete examples - and the best is free runners, who also talk about this state of mind where they silence their thoughts, and the body becomes an extension of their intent, their will. To see them do that one realises, it's no joke. To see a form, one only thinks 'hard training' - it's harder to acknowledge the accomplishment of expression of intent, but it is still there. In terms of fighting, similarly, if I hit the bag really hard, there's no way to demonstrate that that comes from zhan zhuang more than bag training - but I know that it does. If I spar, there's no way to explain my state of mind, or how my body feels - all I can do is explain my training method. On the other hand, most martial artists don't utilise that kind of 'intention' training directly - they experience it as an ultimate product of their training when they reach good and high level. So, consequently, by 'no nonsense' what they generally mean is 'what kind of training do you do that's exactly like our training that I can therefore judge like for like'. In that instance, I don't know that there is similar training ideas in what you do, so I can't offer any comparison, only explain, that the meaning of slow movement is not to learn forms easier, nor is it 'of no importance really' (it wouldn't be there if it had no reason) - it's to deliberately stimulate the relationship between mind and body, to physically stimulate the nervous system, and so make a stronger connection between mind and body. There are a lot of other elements - such as training the right kind of balance between tension and relaxation, and learning to use the finer control, learning how to make the body explode with power - but you can't get that inromation either from people who don't use that kind of training, or from people who don't do it to a serious degree. The second part of your implied question is 'mu' - based on false premises. Quan isn't really techniques, so it's core essence isn't judged on how good its techniques are, but on how well the practitioner can use any technique. However, like I say, serious practioners of Quan do extensive technical and fight training, just as in any art, from karate to MMA.
OK, firstly 'the head of that school' is the head of his organisation Practical Tai Chi Chuan, and not the head of the school of Cheng Tin Hung's TaiChiChuan heritage - it is shared with other 'heads' of other organisations, albeit not many. It is true that Cheng Tin Hung's TCC, has a curious lineage transmission in the world, and 'the head of that school' has some rather partisan points of view - albeit backed up by some reasonable circumstantial evidence. I personally dont buy his standpoint up front - not until I have seen a lot more evidence one way or the other - the PRC is a highly populated country I did chat with a Chinese TCM guy in London who did express a lot of concern with the direction of Internal Martial Arts within China; and I train with a Chinese guy in my city, who has quite a bit of exposure to Bagua, Chen TCC (in Beiging) along with Wing Chun and some Choi Le Fut, who expresses some concerns and admiration (more or less in equal measures) for the direction of CMA in general. This is why doctrinal rhetoric and partisan stances diminish the content and message about some of what is said regarding TCC, its veracity, its orthadoxy/unorthidoxy etc - it just doesnt help anyone, especially people trying to fud their way through 'no nonsense'. Personally, I try to maintain an open mind, but be fooled by no-one. Secondly, with regard to stillness and Zhan zhuang - which is a type/aspect of neigong (yes/no?), divisible into 'health' and 'combat' postures. I personally have seen quite a bit of evidence of the folk who train with 'the head of that school' being simply unmoveable e.g. I would need about 3 times by body mass to begin to shift Ottmar Vigl from a completly stationary, relaxed, passive posture (I am quite small and skinny mind you - but I am no weakling.) I would be extraordinarily surprised if Lio did not have similar capabilities. This is not indicative of a reduction to 'judo with kick boxing'. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now to the interesting stuff. From your many posts and the two existing articles, it is obvious that a) you have a lot of CMA experience and b) you are an impassionated advocate for CMA and its heritage. If you use this to write well coherrant crafted articles on a) contemporary CMA, and in particlar Internal arts, the relationship to the 'machine' of Wushu, the details of the training regimes, where to find the credible training centres - in PRC or outside; and b) expand informatively upon 'the orthodox Yiquan nerve activation theory'; then these will definately be of interest to new and old alike readers of these threads. With regard to a) what Im getting at is how do all these schools/styles/evolutions/traditions relate to each other? For example in the Spear form and applications of 'the head of that school' and his TCC brethren teachers, I can even with my limited exposure, see the influence of Bagua 'walking the circle' in sensitivity exercises, and of the sharp/narrow/explosive spiralling thrusts of Xing Yi. What I want get to is a better more objective picture as to how these elements relate to each other, either specific to a 'school' and/or collectively - so that its a little bit easier to see the whole pie. With regard to b) the whole concept of nerve activation, sensory feedback, returning back to uncomplicated state - 'Animal state' in your words; goes towards partly rationalising some of the more 'mysterious' elements of TCC. In my opinion this is a murky but interesting area e.g. describing qi, so my honest advise is to avoid indoctrinal/partisan rhetoric, and try to get to a more informative and objective coverage in your language and fully explain all the terminology - it will simply read better. The concepts of quan, Zhan zhuang, neigung , stillness all feed into this pie - along with other concepts. In previous times I used Alexander Technique and Feldenkrais to treat injuries - exactly using a form of Neural feedback via nervous tissues and sensory mechanisms - but it is extremly difficult to describe this kind of phenomena in manageable langauge - hence I recommend dropping unhelpfull diversionary language - to enhance clarity on dificult subject matter. Sometimes I 'sense' the Alexander/Feldenkrais observation of a mass of nerve and sensory feedback in TCC, but it is very, very difficult to describe this phenomna in clear language - but this is what makes this area interesting. I dont think that writing cogently on either of these subjects is simple, and probably will end up being somewhat subjective, with the best will in the world.
Dan Docherty makes an issue out of lineage for the simple reason that people like me don’t think he’s got an authentic one. However, that really means nothing to me, and this is one of the hardest things for people to get – it doesn’t even matter. ‘Taijiquan’ is an achievement, not a school or a class. Even more mind bending, taijiquan is both a process ‘and’ an achievement. Even more mind bending than that, the achievement itself is only the accomplishment of opening us to human potential that we already had. It doesn’t matter if Dan has authentic lineage. The fact that he’s so personally obsessed with the matter is a superficial concern. All that matters is achievement. A person could learn taiji from a book, or an idea – even spontaneously, from nature. What really matters is the ultimate achievement of transitioning from superficial from to an awareness that Quan is a state of mind where any or no technique can be used, not a collection of techniques. When I say that things like training punches and kicks is superficial, I don’t mean that in a negative way. For example, I watched Neil Rosiak’s class on youtube. The training they do is superficial, and yet, it is very similar to the training I do. See, I’m not insulting anyone – we all need, and must do, the basic, physical training. But we should never assume, as Dan has done, that the ‘true taiji’ or ‘true Quan’ is simply a collection of techniques. That’s the ultimate in misunderstanding; the ultimate in superficial perception, and a total missing of the utterly profound nature of Quan. Quan is a journey to understand our own potential, both as physical and mental beings. Physical training hones our body, while the true internal method of intuitive learning expands our capacity to think and create; to answer questions our selves. Zhan Zhuang and shi l/slow movement training along with visualisation, explores the power of the mind, and the power of its connection to the body, improving that connection, moving us along the diagram, from the superficial end to the ‘intent’ end. But we need both – and for the real, true expression of the art, one needs a full and total commitment to achieve this ultimate skill level. Ultimately, as I’ve said before, but never really been understood, Quan is one art. Different styles are just different vehicles for arriving at the same ultimate goal. And it’s a paradox that only when Quan is a state of mind that physical form is truly performed. What Dan has done is locked people in one end of the scale, as if, learning more arm locks, or having more fights makes people have ‘more’ taiji. It doesn’t. Similarly, Joanna Zorya, when I speak to her I think she understands the truth, but when I see her perform, I know that she doesn’t. It’s an odd situation. But there’s no reason why people in Dan’s school can’t be doing real taiji. Lineage doesn’t give it, or guarantee it. Only the individual themselves, if they don’t have a teacher who understands this, can achieve it.
The state of Chinese martial arts is ultimately not important. Most of what people cling to as ‘important’ is really just identity. Do you really think Dan Docherty cares about the state of Chinese martial arts? What he cares about is solely how he is seen – he cares only that he be seen as authentic, and that’s the entire point of him spending twenty years trying to convince the world of the preposterous notion that he has real taiji and the Chen family don’t. What you think of as my partisanship is really just a tactic of rattling people’s cages – getting people angry, to think about it. Liokault hates me so much he wants to puke on his shoes every time he thinks about me. He also thinks we have some kind of feud, whereas I actually feel nothing whatsoever about him, because what I’m arguing with isn’t him, but what he believes. Ultimately, I don’t write to ‘save the world of CMA’. I write because some people understand what I’m saying, and as other people bothered to leave information for me, so I have an obligation to leave information for some others. As part of that process, I can’t be anyone other than who I am. I generate feeling in people; and I know from long experience that some people start to agree with what I say, and then go through a process of wanting me to be more like them, or what they think I should be, or, they agree with some of the things I’ve said, but don’t want me to attack other of their cherished views. But I’ll always be the man I am, and some people really love that, and more people hate it. See, I can’t moderate myself to be what anyone else wants me to be – I’d lose that quintessential quality that gets people really mad – and getting people really mad is a step towards getting them to really question what they believe. That leaves people with a choice, should they think of me at all, lol, of being like Lio, and wanting to headbut screwdrivers just at the very thought of me, or of starting to open to what I say.
Well, Lio is a big lad. Immovability, again, is on the superficial end of the scale. I’m working on a kick – a particle accelerator kick. If I can pull it off, it’ll still be superficial. When I say ‘judo and kickboxing’ – well, without the actual taiji training method, how can it be taiji? It can’t. And I've had a push with an elite judo player - and they'repretty immovable too! It can be something else, it can be great, it can be immovable – but that’s not taiji. We make the very concept of a taiji method meaningless if it doesn’t have anything to it that makes it taiji. Why not call jiu jitsu taiji? Or muay thai? See, it’s a difficult point to get across. Only learning technique, even re-direction of force, is superficial. Lio trains in some of the elements of taiji, but not the whole, so it can’t really be called taiji – and most of all, most ironically of all, the very last thing it could ever be is ‘Wudang’ martial arts, which of all elements of Quan is founded on the principle of ‘state of mind over physical technique’.
Thanks for the advice, but, the whole thrust of my articles is to get away from all that, and look at ideas that actually help people improve. I’ve said, many times, that Quan is one art, but it’s never really been understood. Seen like that, all elements of all styles are interconnected. Each style is merely both a vehicle, and a ‘flavour’. The ultimate achievement, in theory, reveals all their interconnections. If Quan is truly a state of mind, then the ultimate achievement of making the body an expression of that state of mind means that if you think bagua, you can do bagua; think spear, you can use spear. Whether Dan Docherty knows some form or other is Dan’s game- a superficial game of making his ego feel better by providing evidence of its connection to a real lineage. That kind of superficial interest will never enter in to my articles.
Making taiji seem less mysterious is Dan's game, and people like him. My aim is to explain that it is actually unfathomably mysterious and profound, and yet, paradoxically simple and within grasp.
LOL spend a lot of time with Dan do you? I would hate to suggest what any one does or does not care about, but I really do doubt Dan Docherty worries what people are thinking about him. Certainly, unlike most of the CMA community, his actions have never been held back by opinion. I do find it ironic that you were unaware of his opinion on the history of Chen until I posted it in a previous thread. LOL I don’t hate you silly boy. Also I dont think what were having counts as an argument, discussion even, as I have been largely not replying to your posts so's not to derail the thread. But as of the last 15 posts 10 have been very lengthy efforts by you there is no point trying to keep this on track. I do find your idea of 'real' TTC and CMA training in general odd. From my reading you feel that doing 'slow motion' training (not that I don't do any) gives you a tangible benefit......that you cant quantify in any way and can be easily replicated with 'conventional' training. You say that standing in a stationary stance, connecting to your animal side helps you hit the punch bag better........but that you cant prove that and that there are lots of people who train in a conventional manner who can hit a bag just as well..... You say that you (and pretty much you alone amongst the occidentals in the UK) truly understand the method and outcome of true TTC but that you have never seen it successfully applied!
The amazing thing is, we’re still just lightly touching the cusp of the idea that Quan is a state of mind. Not only is it a state of mind, but the profound depth of that idea, which has been in front of us, hidden in fill view forever, is that one can access other states of mind. Wang Xiang Zhai said that Xing Yi originally had no forms. The animal forms, originally, were intended to be the mood or intent of a particular animal – like, if one needed to crash through one’s enemies, one might take on the mind-set of an elephant. If one was fighting a fast and agile opponent, one might take on the mind set of a sparrow. Over time, the people lost the profound depth of the idea, and the way it related to the connection between yi – intent – and the body. Recently, an eagle claw teacher put a form on youtube. One of the comments said about it was that it was missing something, but they couldn’t put their finger quite on what. Well, I can. I can out my finger on it precisely. The performer had no eagle intent in his performance. There was nothing of the spirit of an eagle in him whatsoever. It was weak and dead, not even demonstrating a powerful human intent. The ultimate achievement for that guy would be to become so imbued with the intent and state of mind of an eagle that even if he slipped and fell over, onlookers would see an eagle tumbling, an eagle shaking its head, and an eagle getting back on its feet. As it is, if he fell over now, he’d fall over like he did the form – like a crappy human. I can see why that person, and people like him, make a song and dance about lineage and authenticity – all crappy surface rubbish. Nothing, whatsoever, in eagle claw wushu is as important as accessing the state of mind of an eagle, and being able to utilise that, whether for fighting, or just for the sheer joy of moving like an eagle. I believe that each form of Quan has its own mood or state of mind. Every animal form has, as its goal, not superficial form, but the ability to totally assume that animal’s mood. Taiji has its mood. Southern style has its mood. I believe, that to fully achieve the ‘mood’ of any one art, and express it perfectly through one’s movement, is an astounding accomplishment, which the ancient masters of Quan performed with aplomb. But, the ultimate achievement would be to be able to assume the mood of any style. That would mean a totally fluid connection between a finely honed mind, and fully trained body. I don’t know if anyone can actually do that. The closest I’ve seen is my own coach, who could mimic anything and anyone. Not only any kind of wushu you mentioned, but he could assume the form of any person – he could mimic all of our movements to perfection. Still, that’s still external form – one half of the equation. I don’t know if he could genuinely assume the mind-set, say, of a tiger. He certainly fully understood the theory, though, and talked about the intent behind the movement, say, when we did eagle fist, of finding the spirit of an eagle. And he also talked about his friend Chen Bin, the cousin of Chen Bing, when we saw him perform, saying that outwardly, his movement was like his own – technically excellent, but Chen Zheng Lei and Chen Xiao Wang have something else, something that animates the form in a different way – I think he meant their intent – which takes years of further training to hone and develop.
Actually, Dan not only cares deeply what people like me think about him, he's obsessed with it. His entire self image is based on conflict with others. As for opinions holding him back - I don't want to hold him back. If you think that, you've mis-read me. I was reading Dan's stuff probably before you even started training. You know what, I think I'm the most on track. When the question was asked, I read the responses, and I realised, really, people couldn't answer. But I could. So I did. I know. It's because you've never heard it before. No, I haven't said that. The fact is, like it or not, physical postures like a punch or a kick can be seen - but on the other end of the scale are things that one can't talk about; not because I don't want to, but because they can't be. Experiential states can only be experienced. Convnetional training is an ever expanding term. Visualisation is conventional training in a lot of sports now. That's a difficult thing to answer - and it's usually the point I make, and the irony isn't lost on me. I can only say that it's helped me, and the reasons are the reasons I've already stated. Part of the tremendous difficulty is this idea that the mind can add something intangible in to the mix. *Shrugs* - the closest one could come to that is to say something like 'believe you can win', but still, that's no where near it. Hitting a bag is a superficial thing, so it's my mistake for using that example. Through zhan zhuang I trained something intangible - my intent to hit harder - or rather, I trained my mind's physical control over my body, part of which was to allow more relaxation and whole body movement, as well as a more powerful intent behind everything I do. I can't quantify it;but never the less, intangible as it is, it can'tjust be left out of taiji, and what remains still be taiji. Well, I lied about that, actually. I've seen it used many times. However, as for what I imply about myself, well, you know what, I don't believe that we should feel ashamed of achieving knowledge and insight. And God knows, I have been generous and determined in attempting to share it.
I thought I explained before, but maybe not, that I don't do Tai Chi, and I know sod all about it. I do however have experience in other martial arts. I've been to look at various Tai Chi classes, and spoken with people that teach, but to be honest every single one has taught and talked b*******. That's why I am asking these questions. I have been told that real Tai Chi doesn't exist any more, due to the fact that it wasn't as widely taught as other arts. It wasn't spread in the same way that something like Karate was. Therefore, it is almost impossible to find a 'proper' teacher, especially outside China. These are not my words, just what I have heard. What do you all make of that? Is it true?
Feel free to stop sharing. Fundamentally, you view is that you have the "real" and a direct line to all things PRC (I bet people will be amazed that you have never been to China) and CMA, but can't substantiate it.....oh, and somehow a Thundercats fixation helps GRRRR. Its amazing how little content there is in your posting on this thread.
So when was Tai Chi brought to England, and by who? Who spread the word around the world so to speak?
Sorry, thought you said you were new to TCC Well, as Fire Quan has already pointed out, the mainstream TCC guys spend a lot of time in slow motion, bull or not its not going to teach you to fight by its self. Fire Quans assertion, for example, that he hits the bag well because he does standing meditation is bull, he hits the bag well (to what ever extent he hits the bag well) because he hits a punch bag. Its an absolute fundamental that you fight like you train. If your training is 90% slow motion then you are wasting 85% of your training time. Your saying a lot there. The vast majority of tcc has no real martial content. This is just as true in China, where in addition you will lose a lot of money looking. I do think its untrue to suggest that there is no disharmony in the Karate camp...look at the threads on 'do we need kata' etc.
Fire-quan, We've disagreed in the past, but for what its worth you've won a covert on this thread!!!! Very best wishes
