If I thought I was to the point that I couldn't benefit from further instruction from Kuk Sool, then perhaps I would train in another art. Thing is I only have time for one art and as a part time school owner I am dedicated to Kuk Sool only. I'm sure you can understand that because I'm limited by other obligations that Kuk Sool is a good art to get a overview of a broad range of skills. Within Kuk Sool I can specialize in one or more aspects and increase the specific skills in those segments if I choose. That's my point I guess, I'm not saying that it's for everyone, but it works for me.
It's always best to get a good grip in one style first, a really good grip and it then gives you the platform to experiment with confidence elsewhere.
I agree 100%......I have another question, how much time do you guys think it takes to have a decent grip on KS? imagine 5 days a week, maybe 2 hours?
This reminds me of an old-school combat curriculum approach (still) used by many masters in Brazil. The thought is that styles like Aikido, KS and Hapkido are not necessarily complete arts in and of themselves, but rather, they are perhaps the best completing arts. The progression usually starts with Judo. Once a player reaches black belt level, they go onto supplement their Judo with BJJ. After the BJJ game reaches purple belt level, they progress to Aikido or Hapkido. I think many folks out there think that KS does not work on fully-resistant opponents or sometimes question the efficacy and validity of the usefulness of the art. But imagine if a KS player had mastery of the standup leverage (Judo) and ground-game (BJJ)...and were rounding out or completing their knowledge with KS, I think we're talking about another level.
From my experiences up to JKN and now in judo, I feel that these extremely competent grapplers would be supplementing an extremely solid base with many low percentage techniques that they couldn't drill resistively. Perhaps its just me but if I was at that level of grappling (my stand up is better than my groundwork) then I'd want to refine my skills rather than add techniques I can't incorporate into my existing training methodology. How do you feel as a purple belt VM? Does it bother you that you can't kuk sool "roll" to the same extent as in BJJ. By that I mean use all the techniques you learn in a resistive environment without fear of serious injury.
I think you are absolutely right in asserting that many KS techniques are low percentage. The techniques themselves, if executed properly, are fundamentally sound....but as you have stated, they are low percentage against fully resisting opponents. With a solid Judo and BJJ foundation in tow, IMO, the percentage of executing KS techniques increases many fold. Why? Because spacing, timing and leverage aspects are heightened due to this background...which translates well into pulling off initially low-percentage KS techniques. For example, a fundamental thing when my opponent is in my guard is not to have their hands touch the floor because that gives me a base to attack that arm. They usually want to establish wrist-control and transition into a submission. Sound familiar? And as you know, KS has plenty of techniques to combat someone who grabs your wrists. I've threatened with a wristlock [KS], transitioning to a kimura (which often times wasn't fully there but due to the threat, forces my opponent to transition)[BJJ] which allows me to sweep [Judo] and possibly get in position to stand. As for rolling with someone who only does KS, there really is no comparison. Although BJJ is not supposed to be dependent on athleticism and size, I have found that rolling with white and blue belts that outweigh me by 40-50 pounds exceedingly difficult.
I agree that some of the ks techniques I learned have become more applicable or "high percentage" since I trained in judo, both in standing grappling and groundwork, the latter I'm sure mirrors your experiences. However, I'm not sure how you could teach the tactile awareness that you get through grappling to kuk sool without it just being something that looked vaguely like judo/no-gi/wrestling etc.
Not entirely sure this was aimed at me but that's not what I said. My point that was from my personal experiences I've found that I have more luck applying some of kuk sool's techniques since I started training in judo and I hypothesised that this was due to frequent resistive training having given me better timing, spacing etc than static drills. VM who by her grade alone is a far more competent grappler than me seemed to have similar thoughts but coming from the other direction as I believe she did BJJ first.
It's very hard to say as with any arts it depends on who is teaching you, how up for it the instructor is and how good the other students are at pushing you. For me though a couple of years will give you good competency in what your doing and most fights are won by the basics. It depends on so many things though but 2 years gives time for you to learn, understand then begin to play around with what you know and adapt it.
This is a point I have said for years on here. When you learn and understand , take a technique (wrist locks) and I consider myself pretty much as having nailed these down over YEARS and tediously more YEARS of practice. But I find other arts then play well into these hybrid styles. By hybrid I mean pure grappling or pure striking. I found coming from a Karate and Kickboxing background with some wrestling enabled me to move well into Ninjutsu and the Jujutsu as I understood what was right and wrong (for my body type) with what I was being shown, then I adapted them. I went to a KSW class with the background in the above and found it very easy indeed but it was because I was familiar with all these ranges. I then moved into MMA and found what I learned before helped a lot and away you go from there. There is a common thread that runs through styles like this. Karate, Kickboxing, Thai, TKD etc - all heavy on the striking bias. Judo, BJJ, Sombo, Wrestling etc - all heavy on grappling. Do one of the above each and you will find. Ninjutsu, Jujutsu, TKD, Hapkido, Silat etc easier to adapt to. If this makes sense, there are other odd ball styles like Systema etc but even playing with this I found the background I had made it easier to pick up. Its all about establishing a base to build from. The point Herbo makes is if you can get a move on someone in grappling/sparring etc when they don't want to get caught with it, then in training you can get the set up and catch students better with it. From a self defence point of view, when the fight is in the trows your sparring stuff comes to bear. If its at the mouthing off at you part then its like appling technqiues on a training partner, catch them cold.
Thanks guys, it is interesting that you see arts like Hapkido, KS, Aikido, etc more like the cream on top of a martial artist, than its core.... even though personally I don't share that view, I find it extremely interesting. My take is actually the opposite. These arts offer a myriad of opportunities to grow. For example, when I started in KS a million years ago as a little kid, what I learned was very near what a TKD, Karate or Kick boxer learnt. Mainly, a bunch of punches and kicks with some interesting acrobatics in the middle (mostly jumping and falling). Things started to change over time... we kept learning and improving our basics (the one above), but they increased in complexity.. also, other things like throws and J L became part of our weekly practice. Flash forward a few years and some weapons appeared. But, without ever abandoning the basics. It just got harder; we simply got new layers put on top, without ever lowering the intensity of the lower ones. Eventually, as time went by, we all started to choose favorites. Some guys liked to punch, others JL, etc... but the good thing is that every single one of us had a very solid foundation.......... the problem? This takes 15 years.......... only one little issue.......
Since I am getting into this one a little late in the game I will keep it simple.... No there is NO Grappling Techniques in the WKSA. If you call Wah Ji grappling then maybe. The technique concepts do work if you are intelligent enough to translate them on to the ground. Since the WKSA does not really have any kind of training SOP :bang: in any way it all depends up to your instructor. If any one wants to explore training methods incorporating KS concepts please feel free to hit me up and I will share some of what KiCKS has produced so far. (FREE) :evil:
As was mentioned, KS is a fine completing art. The WKSA is the biggest and best producer of KS in the world. But if grappling is what you want, you'd be a fool to goto a renegade KS school. The better advice is to cross-train in true grappling arts like BJJ, sambo or wrestling. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. IMO, a Judo-BJJ-KS combo is a very good traditional approach. Others like the wrestling-BJJ-MuayThai combo. Still others prefer the TKD-Judo-BJJ combo or the Boxing-Catch Wrestling combo. I think any one of these makes for a pretty solid empty-hand martial artist.
But Vegas, if someone is a black belt in The WKSA they are not to cross train in any other art. So going to some where else to train is ( in a deep menacing voice ) FORBIDDEN! And second, why not a renegade KS school? Since they are not bound by the WKSA's rules maybe the teacher has trained and is very good at ground fighting? With so many "MMA" schools out there that are doing well in competition why not let the buyer make up there own mind. Why be so negative on ( in your words ) a renegade KS school? On the last note I have to agree with you about the WKSA being the biggest but the "BEST"?:bang: I am not saying that the WKSA does produce some really talented KS'ers, but the "BEST"? I prefer to think that each teacher and each student produces the "BEST" students. I have seen some really good students in and out of the WKSA, and IMO, The student is 90% the reason that they are as good as they are. I have also seen terrible students and again the student is 90% of the result. :evil:
Ignore the propaganda. Don't fall for the nonsense when someone tells you that their KS school can teach you groundfighting. Don't fall for the nonsense about what is and what is not forbidden. If you want to learn grappling, you shouldn't be looking at KS schools...you should be looking at BJJ, sambo, wrestling or MMA schools. If you want to learn KS, the WKSA is the biggest and best.
YOU SAID IT VEGAS! DO NOT FALL FOR THE PROPAGANDA! Side Note: VegasMichelle = Public Relations for the WKSA I found this little tid bit on the net: Article 5, Section 3, paragraph 1 from the World Kuk Sool Association, Inc, Lincense Agreement & Quality Assurance Program "Black Belts should not undertake training in any other martial art style other than Kuk Sool Won, nor may they receive certification from any other martial martial art style. Black Belts shall not exchange any technical knowledge with students/instructors from other martial art styles whatsoever. If found breaking this rule, Black Belts will be subject to disciplinary action from the WKSA." Is this true or not? You decide the PROPAGANDA.:evil:
The OP is a Blue Belt. What are your findings that pertain to the OP? I notice that you conveniently left that part out. Do you think that you can teach grappling/groundfighting better than a BJJ school?
