Ninjutsu's Bad Image

Just about all the information available in English about Ninjutsu comes from Masaaki Hatsumi and T. Takamatsu..........not all but almost. In one form or another just about everyone and everything having to do with Ninjutsu stems from Masaaki Hatsumi and Shoto Tanemura. This is of course true for most the world except Japan, where Masaaki Hatsumi and T. Takamatsu's claims are dismissed by most.

On the topic of being dismissed, we have an account from Dr. Karl Friday who is a respected Japanese Historian (cited from http://www.mardb.com/ninjutsu/ninju...ame. Am I the only one disturbed by this?

 

To Silv,
I usually disregard these " not authentic" posts because they tend to be non practioners that bring them up but this very subject matter was actually brought up in class by a fellow student, who I imagine will be an former student quite soon because he didn't agree with our discussion both verbal and practical.

After training in the Bujinkan( ninjutsu, budo taijutsu, etc...) for many years and mainly focusing solely on the training and very little time spent on the politics of it all I realized one thing in the past few months. If this whole art was made up ,the result of childhood games ,whatever else people have said and it came to an end tomorrow I would still practice it and learn from it....

I know that this stuff works both on the recieving end and on the giving end. it has saved me from great harm on more that one occasion. To me that is the true test of its authenticity.

Continued success in your own training

 

To Stauburn,

I can definitely respect that. If it works for you that's great. I just have an issue with Masaaki Hatsumi calling it authentic Ninjutsu if it really isn't. That, plus, honestly a lot of people training in arts related to Hatsumi and Takamatsu seem to have major attitude problems and go crazy at the mention of anything they don't agree with (again not all but many). Anyway, good luck with your training.

 

Do any recognised historians give validation to Nijutsu or does all the belief come from within the organization?

 

What are you talking about, Jiraya is awesome.

I think it's about time you had a Strawberry Milkshake.

 

Silv,

Let's just save some time and cut through the crap. OK.

That article applies just as much to the ninjutsu authorities I expect you will soon mention. You know... the ones you mention in all of the similar threads you have started.


As for the addendum to BRDJ, this is all very old 'news'. No big revelation there.

Watatani's work was commendable, but it is not considered to be a primary source for research. Despite a number of revisions there are many errors and omissions.

 

Ninjutsu having fake history is pretty much old news by now.

 

I actually find it highly likely that Takamatsu really did say that to Watatani, I'd probably have done the same myself.

 

Has the school kids in the USA gone back to learning yet? For this normally happens when schools out.

Or perhaps the OP is just making waves from something that was done to death in 1999 and 2000 when e-budo was having these questions placed upon their pages.

 

This is something that i too have had to examine myself as a practitioner of this art for 23 years. Is what Dr Hatsumi and others (Mr Tanemura, Mr Hayes, Mr Manaka) just simply something that Mr Takamatsu made up?

Of course the possibility is always there. Maybe just maybe it was all made up as it says in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. However there are several ways of looking at this issue. The first is...

Faith: There are many millions of Christians throughout the world who obviously believe in Jesus, yet there is not one contemporary piece of evidence that Jesus ever existed. Not one. But people dont usually go around telling Christians that they are wrong and that their whole religion is a sham and something made up. This is because most of us have respect.

Personally however I believe we should, but thats a different story.

But my point is that a lot of things in life are based on faith. In fact many things that we believe are based purely on what we are told and we would argue fervently against anybody who did not believe our belief even though our own beliefs if examined are shaky. Think about how many times you have changed your mind in the wake of new evidence even if you used to cling 100% to that belief and would argue fervently to support it.

So my point being that some people do not need any more evidence of ninjutsu as a real martial art than what they are told. For them that is enough, and it does not matter how many negatives or contrary pieces of evidence go against their belief they will still believe in it. In fact many dont even question it. Just like many creationists in the wake of all the cosmological, archaeological, geological and evolutionary evidence that goes against their belief they still believe in creation.

Reason: Why would To*****ugu Takamatsu make up Ninjutsu?
After all he was already a grandmaster in Kukishinden Ryu (A school that contains many aspects of Ninjutsu), as well as other schools such as Gyokko Ryu which came from the Iga area of Japan, and of course he had a copy of the Amatsu Tatara Hibumi a scroll or series of scrolls that contain many aspects of ninjutsu like techniques.

Therefore with all this information at Mr Takamatsu's disposal would there be a need to start from scratch and make up ninjutsu?

I doubt it, but apparantly according to some, he did.

Indeed just the fact that he was grandmaster of the Kukishin Ryu was enough to secure his fame. Remember he had to teach the Kukishin Family their martial art which they had lost, and the Kukishin Ryu family were very well known.

It would be akin to being the martial arts instructors to the Royal Family. With those credentials on your CV your lively hood would be secured forever.

Now lets say Takamatsu did create Ninjutsu.

one would expect like the Ashida Kims, James Loriegas of the world that he would set up shop and start teaching to make money. But apparantly this is not what he did. As you know much of his early life (Apparantly) was spent in China, and then even when he came back to Japan he did not open a large martial arts school. In fact in the various interviews that appeared in Bufu magazine, the students of Takamatsu Mr Kimura, Mr Kimbei etc had to ask him to teach.

Not exactly the actions of a man possesed wth creating his own martial art. For what reason would there be?

Realism: If Mr Takamatsu had created a martial art called Ninjutsu based on the fact that he had no previous martial arts experience, and the whole stories about the grandmastership of Gyokko Ryu etc is a lie, we should be able to see gaping holes in the teachings of Takamatsu just like we do in the teachings of the fake ninja out there i.e Fuma Ryu.

Now having said this I realise that there are people out there that claim to be teachers of this art (Bujinkan especially), who probably dont really know that much to be able to show case their art but are still willing to put their ill attempts on you tube for all to see. This of course gives a very bad image of the art and of course leaves the art open to ridicule.

And the fact that the whole grading debate had been looked at properly (ie No 15th dans and a proper sylabus) then half the negative debates about ninjutsu would not be going on. I sometimes feel that Takamatsu must be just spinning in his grave. But as i say thats a different story.

The truth is, getting back to realism, is that if you examine just the swordsmanship for example of the various X Kans then one can see that this is not something that has just been made up but fits in well with other ryu ha of the period, and interestingly has concepts found also in other battlefield martial arts outside of Japan such as Talhoffer. Recently I attended a demonstration of medieval English martial arts and what was being taught directly epitimised what I had been taught in Ninjutsu. In other words what the instructors were saying completely echoed what my teachers had taught me. we should not expect that if the art was made up, shopuld we?

Now of course we could argue that the art looks good and feels good because Takamatsu was indeed skilled in other martial arts. So the question then arises "Why then to go to my previous point, for what reason would Takamatsu have to create the name and art of Ninjutsu"?

It would be akin to having received grandmastership in several European Medieval martial arts, which were recognised nationally from which you could make a good living teaching, demonstrating, and acting as a fight choreographer, and then deciding to state that you were also a Jedi.

Bang, all your credibilty just went out the window.

And yet apparantly this is what takamatsu actually did. So going back to point two. There is no reason for Takamatsu to do this, UNLESS he actually knew Ninjutsu.

So to continue, for anyone that has studied the arts of Takamatsu, one would have to realise that this is not something made up from childhood games. the teachings are very deep. And of course as i have mentioned some of the scrolls that Takamatsu owned already contained elements of what we might call Ninjutsu.

Historians: Not so much a point, but an important issue to cover. As a bit of a historian myself (B.A Archaeology) I realise that for every historian you find you will also find a contrary view. Take Egyptology. We have peple believing in the time frame that was established over 100 years ago (Kitchener) and those that question it (Rohl), We have those that believe that the anglo Saxons were vicious invaders that invaded Britain and others that say that the Anglo Saxons for the most part were just migrants that coexisted with the Romans. In fact in all areas of history one can find Historians that disagree with each other. Even some of the facts of WWII that only happened 70 years ago are hotly debated.

Now of course that is not to say that we should undermine historians. Just that Historians have contrary views, and those views are based on evidence and historians can only go on the evidence available.

Its possible for example that king Arthur (Probably not a king) actually existed, but because we only have Nennius, Bede etc much of it written years after the so called events we cannot prove it. But it would be ridiculous for a historian to state that King Arthur did not exist. He could only say that we have no evidence of king Arthur. Just like with Jesus. As I say there is no contemporary evidence, but strangely there are more than a few historians trying to prove the existence of Jesus.

Now in the case of Ninjutsu, this was supposably a secret martial art. And its highly likely that many of these historians that are often quoted have never seen many of the documents that Takamatsu had. And even if they had, would they understand what they were looking at. Does "Rain in the Village technique" actually mean much to an historian who is interested in the history?

In fact with a secret art like ninjutsu is there an identifiable history?

Or is it more like many of the stories passed down in tribes that one sees in anthroplogical studies.

Its quite interesting that even today we are only just finding out about the truth of the SOE and how they operated, as many of the documents still remained secret, and some were only appearing for the first time in the Imperial war museum in 2006. And that was only from 70 years ago.

So how do we fare with an art that was passed to father to son, whose documents may have been lost in war time, whose documents were probably encrypted anyway, and even then not generally available to the general public, and are still not?

So we are left with a dilemma. Should we disgard the opinions of the historians. No of course we should not, except when they act dogmatically and have not seen or experienced the evidence. But we should also before we totally dismiss Ninjutsu as a sham, and a lie, we should sit down with the grandmaster, take some lessons, and ask ourselves why and what would be the reason for a person like Takamatsu to create Ninjutsu, when it wasnt for fame or profit.

Its not an easy one, and I dont claim to have an answer, But I do feel that people should do a bit more research than simply take the words of historians before they condemn an art and place their opinions based on what they have read from a one sided point of view to condemn a martial art, when in fact the jury is still out.

Garth

 

And i thought ninjutsu started with Michael Dudikoff, well it was the first ninja film i ever saw anyway -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy8AlMh31cM
I remember it well as i was about 12 years old at the time and working on the video vans at the time going round peoples houses hiring out films, my boss had just got the copy of the film, and we watched it before going out to work.

 

Yes.

Silv -- Curious, really, what brings you to this forum?

Also of minor curiosity - how many more ways can you reword the same exact post and start a thread (I suspect this curiosity will be answered in due time).

Oh. And how long have you trained in a BJK dojo?

-Daniel

 

AHHHHH This again.. HMMMM..Yea you are the only one cares at this point if "Ninjutsu" is real or not...

O.k now that, that is out of my system. Silv if you truly do train in the BJK, and this really bothers you. Then ask yourself, what do I want to learn? Am I in this art because I want to be a ninja? Do I think this are is effective? So on and so forth..

Heres hoping you are not a troll..

 

I thought he was a student of the Kawakami fellow. Seems like he was trying to convince everyone that he had t3h r34l ninjutsu.

 

We're all waiting on bated breath for him to bring his argument round to that particular chestnut once again. (Which seems to happen in every thread he posts in.)

 

Shall I get the beers and popcorn seller?

 

Ahhhh... Ok. That makes his inane posts more understandable. Dear god, imagine what would happen if he didn't come out here to set everyone straight!

Whew!

Silv - carry on the good work. In fact - would you mind starting another thread or on this exact same topic. If you want, I can help you.

I know I am ****ed I don't have t3h r34l ninjutsu.

Thank you Silv.

Thank you Silv.

-Daniel

PS. Seriously. I will help start a few more threads for you if you want. Maybe we can petition MAP to start a "REAL ninjutsu" forum and a "Fakey Ninjutsu" forum so we can help put everyone in their place! Woot. Super cool. I can't wait to tell my mum about this. This is the most awesomest idea ever.

PPS. I will await your command Sempie (can I call you that - I know we just met but I feel a connection to you already!). I have several threads already typed out and ready to go. Just give me the command Sempie. (I have the goosebumps...)

 

Oh hey, i also have the REAL ninjutsu and i'm ready to set everyone straight on a new REAL ninjutsu forum.

My mum said that as long as I don't use any deregotory words i can tell the fakey ninjas off.

Just a question? Should i put on my ninja mask while typing posts to make it more authentic? Wouldn't want to cast doubt on my 10000 year old lineage

Thank you Silv

You bring new hope to REAL ninjas everywhere

PS: I found a smooth rock at the creek today that looks really good for strengthening my knuckles. I was hitting it today for 10 mins but had to stop because my knuckles started bleeding. I'll train harder tomorrow.

 

Dear Brother Marmet:

Welcome to the Klan. Woot!

Why would you ever take the mask OFF? Seriously man - what were you thinking!

Indeed. THANK YOU SEMPIE SILV. I just wanted to put in an extra thanks - it was so good the first time it was worth repeating.

You can only start that kind of training when you are ready to really devote serious time to you art. Preferably after you get married because there is NO way you can get a ring on your finger after you smash that knuckle into a lawn bowling ball 10,000 times. Yeah - he HATES lawn bowling. A lot. A lotta lot.

-Brother Daniel

 

Oh thats good advice. Forever in your debt.

Thank you Brother Daniel

Thank you Silv

- Brother Marmet

PS: What is the symbol of the klan so i can put it on my forehead protector (which goes over my mask obviously).