New Systema article

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Paul Genge, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

  2. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Good article thanks for posting it!
     
  3. DCombatives

    DCombatives Valued Member

    Pretty good article Mr. Genge, and on the overall principle, I couldn't agree more. It's hard for many people, myself included, to "unlearn" habits from the past. As an example, after many years away, I've recently gone back to a Tang Soo Do school to train with my 4 year old son. Most of what I've been doing for the last 10 or so years puts me in a squared up stance to my opponent. But of course, the rules of sparring in a TSD class, naturally favor the side facing front leg kicker. Squaring up leaves me open, and I'm having quite a time adapting. It's always interesting to me to see how styles have adapted to accomadate their particular methods and approach. You have no idea how much I want to hit a single leg takedown just to prove a point. Of course the right thing to do is unlearn, or at least try to do it the TSD way when I'm in class. What you're talking about runs a bit deeper than this, but I think my instinctive reaction to the situation I'm in at TSD illustrates your point.

    I think you bring up another good point about body building, but at the same time, it might be misleading to novice weight lifters and martial artists. It's important to differentiate between "body building" and "weight training". Body building as you correctly point out, isolates muscles, can slow our movements, can inhibit our movements, and actually makes us weaker. It is a myth that body builders are "strong". Not that they can't move heavy weights, but their actions are limited and the body builder usually has a major muscle group in a state of recovery and is therefore "weak" from the standpoint of functional strenght. Weight training on the other hand, when done properly is one of the best things a martial artist can do to increase his strenght and explosive power. Whole body workouts, focusing on multiple muscle groups with each exercise are the best way for any martial artist to improve. Of course, weight training is only one aspect of physical preparation and is useless without the others. (muscular endurance, aerobic conditioning, and flexibility) I know there's another thread on MAP about weight lifting, but I just can't understand how there's still any debate. Every major sport, from American Football to Basketball to Boxing includes weight training in their athletes physical preparation. Why the martial arts community is so far behind the power curve baffles me.
     
  4. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Within Systema it is important to control pride. This manifests itself in tension within the body and mind. The act of weight lifting in a gym does put one at risk of becoming pridefull.

    Also Systema has a very developed set of exercises that form the basis of the system. The special ops guys I met in Russia favour them over weight training for strength development, but they are developing themselves for a specific enviroment.

    Paul Genge
     
  5. smack

    smack New Member

    Hi Paul
    in regard to what is holding your systema back, is it not the bottle neck of info to the U.K.? Systema in the U.S. is very advanced in comparison to what is after all a poor U.K. cousin. Do you know this? And it is viewed that way in the U.S.
    Further more ,are you suggesting that ego is attained through physical culture? This astounds me! That the Spetsnaz prefer Biomechanical exercise to weights still means that your body has to adapt to stimulus (exercise) and thus grow stronger .But that you will grow stronger and become devoid of ego ,through this? Please clarify this pointy for me ?Who has provided this information? Have you tried for yourself training weights to see if your ego takes over? The egos i've met in gym's were the terrified people ,whose poor self image manifested itself in pushing roids in the hope that they mighy make their already bloated ,shapeless puffed up bodies even bigger in the hope that they might, just might feel like somone in this world. I have trained with a massive Sytema practitoner about 6 2' and 20 stone of solid muscle ,extermely imposing looking, but infact a warm and humble human being, so what happened in his case. Is he an exception? Is it strength of personality , what was it ? Who ever provided your info MUST know!
    I practised Sytema for a couple of years ,attended a seminar with Rob, the chief instructor.I left because of the utter tosh that devotees are expected to swallow, sadly some of them do, and go on to become the most dogmatic people involved in martial arts, rabid in their defence of their system. I gained little, very valuable info when training Sytema, and mentally more than physically it has changed me as a person in a way that no other martial art has, but dogma, pseudoscientific and heirarchical nonsense ,along with the impossiblity for personal preference put me off ,forever! If someone was to ask me whether they should try Sytema i would definitely advise them to give it a go, if the same person was to ask me whether they should lick razor blades i would give the same response.
    The system, is already old news and already being left behind. You talk about ego but systema is so in love with itself and what it regards to be the truth that surely, this is an ego at work. Cant you see the wood for the tree.
    Ps can you confirm that the the Spetsnaz, to a man, do not like weights.
    I now see Systema quite clearly ,monkey see monkey do (just don't ask why your doing it Mr monkey ,the answer will defy reason, logic and probably even gravity).
     
  6. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Wow that's pretty agressive and confrontational for a first post!



    Why not give us some background about yourself, in the intro section, then we'll know who we're talking to.

    At the moment you're looking like you've just come here to persue some form of agenda. So please show us that you don't live under a bridge or anything like that and just what to have a discussion about the various points of Pauls article !!
     
  7. DCombatives

    DCombatives Valued Member

    Mr. Genge, I would contend the act of doing anything until you thought you were good at it can make one prideful. Bodybuilders can become quite narcissistic, but again, there's a difference between weight training and body building. Bodybuilding as is seen in many gyms is training to achieve a desired physical appearance. Weight training to enhance your ability to perform in your chosen activity/sport is something entirely different. Bodyweight exercises are nothing more than weight training using your body as the weight. Matt Furey has made a career out of advocating that style. But the body only weighs so much, and after you've adapted to it, all you're really doing is repetitive muscular endurance exercises. You can build more strength in less time by using objects for additional resistance. I happen to really like the sandbag workouts I got from Ross Enamait's Ultimate Training for the Ultimate Warrior program. The functional strength I've built using the bag is unbelievable. But just using a medicine ball or even a heavy bag, is weight training. Think of it like running: if all you do is long slow distances, you'll never build the kind of edurance needed for fighting. For that, you need sprints as well as distance work. In the same way, you need muscular strength and muscular endurance to be an effective fighter, so a blended approach of body weight endurance and sport specific resistance training is the best way to condition for fighting. Weights, plyometrics, and calisthenics combine to produce the best results. The proof can be found in sport after sport, athelete after athelete. This is how olympic boxers, wrestlers, track stars, and even speed skaters train. The mix can and should be tailored for the sport/activity with empahsis placed on certain areas as demanded for the activity. Rugby players have demands that Football/Soccer players do not and vise-versa. I really think ignoring weights as a training tool will limit someone as a martial artist in the long run.
     
  8. vcamp

    vcamp New Member

    Systema

    Hi

    Mr Smack, extremely hard statement about Paul, and Systema. I think Paul is entitled to his opinions, even if you disagree. Questions:have you trained with a guy called Graham Ramsden?(Ninjutsu and Systema) and myself, ex boxer, currently training in Ninjutsu and the System. If not, then how can you say that systema in this country is a poor relation to the US. Have you trained with Vlad or more importantly travelled to Moscow, to train with the head of Systema. Interested in your response! DC, I will make a constructive reply to your reply to Paul, as soon as, current professional coach, P.E teacher and Sport Scientist. What are both of you training in now, interested, as always looking to improve and experience new stuff, would gladly come and train and try it out for myself.

    Vinny Campbell
     
  9. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member


    Calm down man and less about the monkey's

    From what i have seen of systema its a very adaptable and valid system.

    :)
     
  10. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Quite a lot to reply to.

    The 1st thing I would like to point out that though some parts of the article may be relevant to other styles it is an article refering to things that hold us back studying systema. This is not the same for all martial arts.

    I have discussed the subject of weight training with Vlad, Michael and Sergie Oscherlejew (Hope I spelt that right). Also here is a link to a thread that has a comment on weight training from Aran D, who is British and spent a year studying Systema in Moscow. I have spent a number of years lifting weights in the past and know something of the benifits and otherwise of this activity.

    Some of the comments that I have picked up from Michael relate to the potential damage they can do do the body. I know that proper technique can limit this, but the human body is designed to shift a limited weight about. Once you start to exceed this you are placing strain on the skeletal system and internal organs. Just look at the beetroot colour a person goes when lifting excessively heavy weights.

    One power lifter I met went to Michael for help. He was told by doctors it was a matter of months before he knees and hips needed replacing. By ditching the weights and doing squats the way Michael told him he has relieved his condition. I know this because every time I see him I ask him how his hips are.

    Vladimir raised the question of pride. In my experience (I have suffered this) weight training does develop this more than other forms of exercise that I have tried. Part of this is down to the gym culture.

    When asked about kettle bells he said he had to use them in the army, but to be careful when using them for the same reason. He said if I decided to use them do it with Michael's breathing method and not Pavel's. I do not know enough to comment about kettle bells other than this.

    Whilst in Moscow, on the Vityaz special forces base, new recruits were seen pumping iron. Sergie joked about this stating it is for movie stars.

    Systema has a very developed set of exercises that improve systema. They might not improve all styles. Some styles prefer exercises that promote tension and aggression. These are usefull qualities in some styles. Weights in this case are excellant. Also puch bags are good for this (Another thing not used in Systema).

    As for comparrisons of Americans and the British Systema scene there is not too much different in them. There are some very talented people in the States and a lot of people who have just set out on their systema journey. Sometimes they fall of the way and find their own paths sometimes not. This is very similar to what is going on in the UK. Here we have a number of groups of varying standards. Some of these groups support each other more than others.

    There is no UK Systema organisation. Infact Vladimir is not kean on such a thing.

    Smack who did you train with other than Rob (Who is chief instructor for Systema UK and not System in the UK)? That might throw a little light on why you did not feel you got on with Systema. Then again it could be that it is not for you.....

    Paul Genge
     
  11. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "Smack" wrote:

    Well a Load of crap basically. Hierarchy? Lol. Impossibility for personal preference? :rolleyes:

    I guess this is the latest tack for attack....What next - Systema guys all have funny haircuts?
     
  12. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    You know now you mention it....... :D :D
     
  13. greenmoon

    greenmoon New Member

    I get together with people in Australia to train where we have no formal(and barely even an informal) training organisation. The training is great, even though we scrape by on what info we get from videos, books and imagination it is clear to me the almost unlimited depth here and it seems to me that the founders give a lot of permission to experiment and evolve - but hey that's just my perception from this side of the world.
    As far as working with weights goes I've actually found an great increase in power and speed since cutting back on the weights. With this has also come a change in the way I strike. And yeah - what is with the haircuts?
     
  14. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I do bodyweight exercises myself, generally handstands and pushups. I also use a kettlebell from time to time, but I want to get trained on them as I think the risk of injury using them is higher than with standard weightlifting practises.

    I personally wouldn't lift weights. I spend a lot of time, as a Tai Chi Chuan practitioner, in developing total body movement, and isolating and working muscles doesn’t make sense in a martial context of you ask me.

    I would give Systema a go out of curiousity, and while I haven't noticed anything untoward regarding the hair, I don't think I have the trousers for it ;)
     
  15. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Sorry but I don't agree about the weightlifting thing at all. Bodybuilding for aesthetic reasons and lifting weights for functional strengths are two different things, the latter of which is complementary to martial arts training.
     
  16. greenmoon

    greenmoon New Member

    I'm not saying that weightlifting is bad or that it is detrimental to martial arts. I've personally gotten a lot out of weights as well as body weight exercises. Since stopping though I have noticed that my muscles do not carry the residual tension that they used to - it's a subtle thing because I've practiced progressive relaxation exercises for a long time but it made a big difference on an energetic levels. Personally I find I get a lot more power and speed out of striking with pretty relaxed muscles but that's just me.
     
  17. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Depends on the style you do. If Systema has exercises to improve Systema a student would be stupid to do other things. If nothing else it would be a waiste of the time available.

    Paul Genge
     
  18. microhard

    microhard Valued Member

    Remmember the Encino man. With Paully Shore,
    the ancient guy only fought when attacked and not for pride.
    If every man and a women for that matter followed that principal, we may not even need a martial art.
     
  19. Anomandaris

    Anomandaris New Member

    I think the real argument stems from your first post.

    you say that it is mainly about systema but has points viable for other styles and so people may have taken it to be a look at weight training in martial arts in general rather than just systema.
     
  20. Punchy

    Punchy Purely Practical

    What is Holding Systema Back in Australia

    At present there does not seem to be one Systema teacher in Australia, which must surely hold it back here. Does anyone know of any instructors in Sydney, Australia? Does the international Systema group have any plan to introduce any?
     

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