New Legislation

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by ka7ana, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. ka7ana

    ka7ana Valued Member

    Ok guys I would like some opinions and thoughts on this. I have included a link below to the Scottish Parliaments consultation document on the control of knives and swords in Scotland. This could effect the use of swords/blades not just in ninjutsu but other arts, and collectors as well.

    It is a lengthy document but if you feel up to slogging through it then post back with your opinion/thoughts.

    MODs if you feel this thread needs to be moved then feel free to do so. I posted it here as Ninjutsu is the art I practice.
  2. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    Here is a summary of the more "interesting" parts:

  3. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    It is a typical knee jerk reaction from the orrifice that is Jack McConnell and his array of lickspittle toadies. They ban the sale in scotland but not legitamate possesion. I cant imagine buying a sword from a shop here anyway but I may order a katana at some tiem in the future but I will just order from a legitamate web dealer. It will put a couple of real craftsmen in the high end replica bussiness for westerm re-enactment out of business but as long as McConnel and the daily record are happy that's a small price to pay.
  4. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    Here we go again. Ban something because it can be used to hurt someone or to commit a crime. Not, let's punish the scum that did this, it's not their fault :cry: :cry:

    Okay, so ban the sale of non-domestic use knives. Then. the next murder or assault will take place using a steak knife or a meat cleaver. Or a butter knife. And then what? Ban all knives until you've had a psychiatri eval, back ground check and then the bad guys will just use forks. Or sporks. Or bats or golf clubs or power drills or hacksaws or axes or so on and so on. And it's happening all over the world, not just Scotland. Big Brother ( or Dad as he likes to be known) is trying to legislate us into obedience.
  5. ka7ana

    ka7ana Valued Member

    Totally agree Kurohana, I feel its not actually dealing with the problem, the people who are intent on carrying out these acts. And as you say its a case of ban these now what happens when they use a screwdriver, chisel etc, etc ,etc.

    To me media driven politics!!
  6. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    I think it is fair to say that the knife culture [in Scotland] is a problem that must be addressed. There are certainly no easy answers but the solutions suggested in the paper are nothing sort of blinkered and, dare I say it, extremely naive.

    Banning / reducing access to knifes [and swords] does not focus on the root cause of the knife carrying culture. Surely education is the key?

    The goverment's (I use that term very loosely when applied to Jack's muppets) problem is that they cannot have an out right ban on knifes [and swords]. Obviously that would be unworkable and unproductive. I am sure a few chef's would have something to say!

    How do you define what a knife is? They have come across this problem before when they banned the sale of "Combat Knifes" (Knifes Act 1997). All that happened was retailers changed the names of the products and continued to sell legally. The Consolation Paper (CP) states: a knife which has a blade or sharp point, and which is not designed only for domestic use, or only for use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food and that the legislation would cover dual- or multi-function knives. I presume items like Swiss Army Knifes, small lock knifes, utility knifes, Stanley knifes etc.. would therefore be covered. Frankly the idea of being arrested for owning a Swiss Army Knife is laughable at best.

    The suggestions themselves seem like the concept of knife restriction (which is necessary) is being regurgitated in a different guise and will not tackle the root cause of the problem but rather hinder the responsible use of knifes and, more importantly from my point of view, the use of swords. We already have laws in place that deal with the sale, ownership and carrying of weapons. For example, the Offensive Weapons Act 1996. It is illegal to carry knifes without good cause (work, religous reasons etc...). It is illegal to sell knifes / swords to anyone under the age of 18. If these laws aren't working then I fail to see how making it more illegal will solve the problem.

    The most interesting part of the proposals is in section 40 describing the “Approved Organisations”. Just how much responsibility will an organisation take for the actions of one of its members outside of, in my case, the dojo or training times?

    Frankly the whole CP has far too many holes in it to be effective.

    It is a sad day when media stigma dictates how and where government legislates. (Maybe I am being naïve now!) :eek:
  7. snake_plisskin

    snake_plisskin Valued Member

    "Rebel Circles" and the Knife Ban: "Reasonable" Enough?


    Although recorded food poisoning cases in Scotland have plummeted by almost 17,000 in the past four years, from around 96,000 to 78,921, the Food and Drink Federation (FDF), which recently launched the foodlink National Food Safety Week has determined that there is still much to be done to put an end to the scourge of food poisoning due to Briton's hand washing habits.

    One of the most disturbing trends, tracked during a one-hundred-and fifty-year longitudinal study conducted by Cambridge University's prestigious Global Restauranteur Society and completed in May of this year, is the use of plates in the food service industry that act as a deadly, if indirect, contributor to nonfatal and fatal cases of food poisoning. Of the nearly 80,000 cases of food poisoning, six resulted in fatalities--all in Scotland. In fact, over half of all the reported cases of food poisoning occured in Scotland, leading researchers to wonder why. The answer, according to some, is already sitting on the table long before dinner is served.

    The main reason the Scottish have been particularly hard struck is not because, as Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs representatvie and MP Hilary Holland (Leeds, SW, Labour) states, "The Scottish have demonstrated an alarming propensity for devouring foodstuffs of questionable nutritional value and sometimes dubious purpose." Rather, it is because the vast majority of Scottish eating establishments and private domiciles have used 186-year old plates whose quality has diminished and whose deteriorated glazing has allowed for the introduction of nooks and crannies in which deadly bacteria hide, unable to be cleansed by normal dish washing procedures.

    Such "plate hoarding" originated in part due to Scottish reaction to tax strictures enacted by London's 1819 Domestic Plate Protection and Promulgation Act, which mandated the sole use of Leeds or "Royal" China made in England in replacing all plates determined to be of Scottish origin. In the political climate of 1819, the elimination of Scottish china was seen as a way to bring the Empire together, and the press of the day came to call domestic Scottish plates "rebel circles"; the very possession of such "rebel Scot" plates was viewed as seditious. The Act also staunched the flow into England of the harmful foreign plates which were flooding the country from Amsterdam, Prussia, and Silesia.

    Because most Scots have continued, from the least-known eatery to the most prestigious haunt of the hoi polloi, to eat upon this so-called "Heritage China" passed down from generation to generation and swapped between businesses since 1849, the Scots have continuted to eat upon plates whose pores contain, on average, seven-thousand times the bacteria over their non-porous, Leeds-derived cousins. Thus, the Scottish have borne the brunt of today's food poisonings, and the full impact of "death by plate".

    It was with this knowledge of the dangers of porous plates, and the full knowledge that a normally quiescent yet quietly rebellious people will continue to use such plates, that Professor Hubert Peabody, Professor of Bacteriology (Emeritus) University of Aberdeen, has put forth a motion with the backing of Acting Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care Malcolm Boyd, calling for the immediate confiscation, by force if necessary, of all dinner plates within the boundaries of Scotland. MSP Boyd is said to have the backing of the Scottish Executive, as well as the full and continued support of numerous paper goods manufacturers.

    MSP Boyd states, "The fight to seize Heritage China, to pull every plate--new or used, decorated or plain--off the shelves, the tables, and out of the cupboards of my fellow Scots shall be an arduous task, but, in light of the research, it is the only way to protect the Scottish people from themselves."

    When questioned as to what the Scottish people will eat upon, once they have turned in all their plates, MSP Boyd stated quite emphatically, "With the FDF's great campaign to increase the washing of hands within Scotland such a great success, the people of Scotland shall have a more sanitary, and much more malleable and easily found conveyance for the consumption of foodstuffs: paper plates, plastic plates, and open, flat-palmed hands, although primarily for cooler foodstuffs."

    Deputy Minister Boyd hailed recent efforts to ban what he called "unnecessary bladed weapons from the arsenals of madman ninjas" as a positive leap forward, ensuring that the safety and quality of life of all Scots was upheld. "Given recent trends, I should look forward to the day when all forms of cutlery are banned, plates are banned, and even china cups and glasses are banned, in order to make Scottish society the European Unions first and only 'cutlery free' societies. Let those who continue to hoard their china plates find themselves put to the jailer for their crimes."

    Now, if that isn't "A Modest Proposal", I don't know what is, heh heh heh...

    I hope this little ditty helps demonstrate how easy it is to frame anything as a deadly thing, if you just embellish things a little [or spin a Tall Tale late on a Wednesday night... :D ]

    Last edited: Jun 30, 2005
  8. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith New Member

    I think we should ban all knives and legalise cigarettes.
    oh and expand the licensing laws to 24/7.
  9. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Hey you can put a nice edge on the filter of a cigarette with a lighter and a couple of mins :eek:
  10. ka7ana

    ka7ana Valued Member

    :D Your right....never tried it though!

    Everything is dangerous in its own right. Its not the item its the person that picked it up!!
  11. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    With all due respect, EVERY part of that statute has something written in to it to allow the sale and use of swords and knives by martial artists. You all act as though your rights will somehow be infringed, and they won't.

    And yes, we have certain restrictions here in the states. NY, MA, CA, and several other states have made it illegal to purchase certain weapons except through an authorized retailer, and believe it or not, the MA industry in those states has yet to collapse.

    As for the other arguments, could someone explain why there is such a huge knife culture? It's gotta be more than just "Scotland doesn't have guns".
  12. ka7ana

    ka7ana Valued Member

    I'm not sure it is any worse than anywhere else, however thats the perception put over by the media. The papers seem to sieze on a specific type of knife, last time combat knives, this time swords, specifically samurai.

    The legislation is brought about by media driven politics and its the innocent that suffer.

    Although I have to say god help us if guns were available to the ned culture.
  13. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Burberry coloured Glocks :D :D
  14. xen

    xen insanity by design

    this is going to become more widely debated over the coming months and once the British tabloid press get involved then we have no chance.

    Mr and Mrs 'Daily Mail' can look forward to many tales of the satanic evil inherent within anyone who has come into contact a samurai sword and we can expect to see all incidents of assault with swords as being reason to ban them.

    On one level, it's hard to the average joe (or joanne) who has never been exposed to the responsible instruction of sword use and ettiquette, they are just another archaic fancy which can be used to threaten their way of life.

    I think the TMA community who do train with live-blades should be acting now to make sure our interests are represented. I think some support for measures such as this would work in our favour. It shows the politicians that we take our responsibilities seriously and that we deserve the right to train in our art with the traditional weapons which formed a part of its development.

    Licencing of clubs and students may seem like a draconian measure but if it helps keep the idiots away from the weapons then it can't be all bad.

    I enjoy free-parties...out in the woods, a sound-system and a couple of hundred people having fun. I missed one last year and my mate, who used to train, told me about the girl was mugged at knife-point and an idiot walked up to edge of where people were dancing weilding a katana and being aggressive and offensive. Some people challenged him (from a safe distance) and he turned and ran off into the woods.

    I would have liked to have seen him disarmed and dragged by his hair the ten miles back to the city and thrown at the door of the local police station, but then, i always was a forgiving sort of chap ;)

    the media is getting 'hot' on the issue of sword attacks and i can understand why...they are getting all too common. Of course, cracking down on the legitimate and law-abiding is no solution, but society needs to be seen to be taking action, so the MA community falls under the spotlight.

    If we work with the authorities on this matter, then society will see that we are not the cause of the problem and turn its attention elsewhere.

    On a more practical note, I am sure that anyone who has trained in ninjutsu for more than five years (assuming live katana work is part of their training) would be more than capable of dealing with someone untrained with a katana. We have a wealth of knowlegde and experience about these weapons which the majority of police officers don't have.

    We could quite easily offer to spend time with front-line police officers, instructing them on effective disarm techniques and stratergies that don't involve the use of firearms. Such action would again serve to demonstrate to the public that having people in society who are trained in the use of such weapons isn't such a bad thing!
  15. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    The uk not having guns is a good part of it.

    The others I can only speculate. in the criminal circles many of them have done time inside where the weapons available are home-made, blades, razors put in toothbrushes, shivs etc...they then get out and buy something a little sturdier, and so do their mates to be the same, or because its not as risky as gettin caught with a gun....

    And possible also th euse of knives in films.... last samurai, house of flying daggers, blade etc... they are easily available and look cool.
  16. ka7ana

    ka7ana Valued Member

    We did request to be one of the groups involved in the consultation.....funnily enough we didn't hear anything.

    Another irc I have is who decides on authorised groups?
  17. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Oh come on Ka7ana your a cold bloodied Ninja assasin what chance would you have of being excepted!! Bloody media
  18. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith New Member

    In Ninjutsu everything/anything can be used as a weapon. However, it'd be tricky to ban everything....

    The whole thing about wanting to ban knives reminds me of the recent news about Peer 2 Peer filesharing, whereby the software is deemed illegal because it can be used to share copyrighted material. If you look hard enough anything can be used for both good and bad. Back in the 70s it was "Video Nasties" penned as the evil of society. Now it's video games.

    It's so drastically easy to find a scapegoat in any inanimate object which is in vogue. It's equally as easy to turn the "issues" into "this is bad"/"this is good" black and white - because it polarises the public into a choosing a side.

    It certainly begs the question - what produces such a violent culture?
    and if you don't agree with the violent part - a culture which saturates itself with guns (and war)?
  19. ka7ana

    ka7ana Valued Member

    None what so ever :Angel:
  20. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    I don't think that's really the point. What if you train and have trained for years but for whatever reason you do not belong to a recognized organization? You run the risk of not being legally allowed to own the weapons you train with. For me, here in the USA, it's more an issue of "Where does it stop?". When you and I start taking the little pink pill that makes us docile and obediant? Or when we have to have permission to leave our house? Yes, I'm exagerating, but we are slowly becoming a nation of more rules less common sense and decency. Everything is being legislated and every aspect of our lives is being scrutinized.

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