New Kuk Sool Association?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Hyeongsa, Nov 10, 2009.

  1. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    You don't need to be "told" to do anything, Quozl, either be more decisive and make up your mind to start another thread, or continue to post your thoughts in this thread, but don't lay the burden on someone else. :rolleyes: :yeleyes: :evil:


    As for all the stuff you mentioned about Aikijutso and Bukiwaza, I haven't a clue, since I never really delved too deep into AKD. What I can attest to, however, regarding the differences in empty hand vs. wielding a weapon, is that you need to figure out what works best for the given situation. Are you defending against a lone attacker or a multitude? If armed, what is the shape, weight, and balance of your weapon and what category does it fall into (pole, blade, flexible, projectile, hybrid/combo)?

    It would be nice not to confuse or confound a newbie when teaching certain aspects of combat, and if similar body movements can be found which are equally efficient & effective for both empty hand AND weapons, then great. But the bottom line is that you should focus on what works best regardless of whether it's similar or dissimilar to other aspects you have learned in MA. And it couldn't hurt to reiterate that I also admonish what our friend, Pugil, has so eloquently stated: "practice for all eventualities."
     
  2. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Cheers UK, bad choice of words wrt "told to" wrt starting a new thread, but was rushing as my good lady wife was putting out my dinner! (And very nice it was too!)

    WRT confusing or confounding a newbie wrt Aikijutsu and Bukiwaza, in reality there is no confusion, as the hand movements for the throws, mimic (if not are actually identical to) the hand movements when cutting with a sword, for instance, the placement of the hands in relation to the centre of the body, or where they move to over the head (think KBS 3 wrt ducking under somebody's arm prior to the take down) etc. The feet movements in sword work resemble those for being attacked in the open-handed aspects as they are designed to move the body out of the way of a sharp blade cutting you in half or skewering you (or a fist punching you in the face or a kick to the groin), i.e. not being in the place where the attack will land. In other words whether the attacker is armed or unarmed, the defence is not to be where the attack is landing. Likewise, whether you are armed or unarmed, the footwork is designed to move you into a place of strength and advantage without loosing your own posture or balance or both.

    One finds, in Aikido at any rate, that if you master the use of the sword your techniques become sharper, since the hands will automatically move to the right place for the throw, and the feet move to the right place for the "advantage". And likewise if you master the open-handed techniques, you master the sword or the short staff (or Jo, which is about a meter or so long (3 to 3 and a half feet long or so). Hope that makes sense, although this is a serious over-simplification of the inter-relationship between the Aikijutso and Bukiwaza.

    This is why I was wondering about KS and whether there was any overlap in weapons techniques and open-handed work in KS. (One could see that the movement in Hyung whether open-handed or weapons has an overlap, in that if you cannot move your body well and in balance and control without a weapon, then God help you if you try to do the weapons Hyung. And at that level of KS the practice of weapons hyung should help open-handed hyung and vice verse when it comes to balace control etc.

    Cheers UK,

    Quozl
     
  3. MasterDunchok

    MasterDunchok Valued Member

    Quozl, the empty hand forms in KS do in fact support weapon usage later. I am going to film one of my students performing the guhm moo hyung this weekend, and then after that film her doing the guhm moo hyung while armed with two swords. You'll see how the form supported the swordsmanship, and vice versa.
     
  4. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    That would be brilliant Sir. Looking forward to seeing the video.

    All the best Sir,

    Quozl
     
  5. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    where you talkimg of something more like:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyO-jptgjx8&feature=youtube_gdata"]YouTube- Daito-ryu: from kenjutsu to jujutsu[/ame]

    if that is the case, i haven't seen anything like that in our syllabus. it truely is a great way to keep archaic and seemingly useless weaponry from disappearing. love it, and using these ideas, we really can keep the sword alive!
     
  6. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    More or less exactly Choladeva. The video you posted more or less exactly shows what the linkage is, and this is seen across the board in all the Aikido techniques I have seen. Both in the footwork and in the hand movements.

    Thanks for this Choladeva.
     
  7. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    I used to explain Ki Bon Soo number 1 almost exactly like that to my students...
     
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    IMVVHO-----
    I believe this is where the arts founded in Chinese traditions have an advantage over those underpinned by Japanese practices.

    In what I have uncovered in the Chinese approach the position seems to be "here is the movement.....what can you do with it?". By comparison the Japanese seem to have an approach where they say "here is the movement......what you are doing is XYZ/ABC."

    In the Chinese approach one can take a biomechanic such as "Pats High Horse" and apply it using either armed or unarmed intent. With the Japanese there seems a need to determine the intent and then practice the specific biomechanics over and over again.

    Of course, this situation is what has sustained the years of debate concerning the real meaning of kata movements in the Okinawan traditions...but thats fodder for another thread, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  9. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    it makes sense that the less is up for interpretation, the less of an art it is....

    i kind of understand what you mean mr. sims, but i thought that's what these guys in the vid were doing; exploring a sword-cutting combination and how it can be used in other ways, like jointlocks and throws. using this same line of thought, the enigma-meister once educated me of one of the many possibilities of a crane movement at the end of baek pal gi (ei in jae ap sul #2). who knows, perhaps when i learn the pyeong su sets i will have more possibilities unveiled.

    although tournament regulations for wushu 'taolu' listed on wikipedia state a form must be at least eighteen movements, the japanese place no such confines, thus what was seen on this video could be called a kata.

    here is a vid of a guy taking a fundamental mantis pattern and attaching some moves to beng bu (crushing step form):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywXOsIWo0K4&feature=youtube_gdata"]YouTube- beng Bu quan[/ame]

    anyways, gave me some insights to possible re-interpretations of mantis-mantis-palm(instead of a trap maybe a deflection) and the end of KCH #1 where elbowing behind could be also grabbing and tugging a limb.
     
  10. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    It's often been said that mantis kung-fu was highly evident in the moves we use in kuk sool. While perusing some of the related videos accompanying the one posted above by choladeva, I stumbled across the one I've inserted below. The training drills depicted in the first half of the clip are VERY similar to some arm conditioning exercises I once learned, although I also learned an advanced version that utilizes stepping/footwork while banging arms with your partner (using a broad-sweep blocking motion).

    And for any KSW BB that never learned the same arm conditioning exercises I did, you only have to recall the spinning backfists used in Geun Dae Ryuhn #1 (pre-arranged sparring exercises) to see the influence hasn't been dropped entirely from the "official" KSW curriculum. :thinking:


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2QGhc9eQys"]Mantis Kung Fu Applications & Conditioning[/ame]
     
  11. drewsif

    drewsif Valued Member

    If I'm understanding your description of the arm conditioning exercise, I believe it is the same one that CJN Lee still has us do fairly often.
    Two people with left foot forward, both step forward with right foot, and use the broad sweeping motion, then stepping back to the right at a 90 degree angle, then repeating the same thing on the other side?
     
  12. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Now some of these posts are VERY interesting if a bit :topic: and perhaps some would be well placed on the "Are forms beneficial" thread! Loved the "sword version" of KBS #1 Some more of this kind of application-explanation-alternative explanation of forms would be beneficial to everyone I feel. Maybe open some minds to what forms can be about.:cool:
     
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :bang: Blast! KIWEST had to go and mention that we're way off topic, before I could manage to tell drewsif that he guessed wrong.

    The drill I learned has both people face off in horse-riding stance, identical to the video. FYI, drew, the footwork I was referring to has 2 zig-zagging cross-steps followed by a pivot, similar to the stepping pattern found in son-mok-soo #5.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010

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