New interview with Kacem Zoughari

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Pankeeki, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Have you seen the Takamatsu DVD? On it there is footage of a lot of Takagi densho (but it's just a fraction of what Hatsumi sensei possesses). And you will find that many, if not most of those displayed, are titled Hontai Takagi Yôshin, or Hontai Yôshin. Of course it's difficult to say exactly which ones contain Mizutani-den and which ones Ishitani-den, but it's an indication of the wide span he received.

    As far as people demonstrating, I am fairly certain that if elements from the Ishitani line are shown by Hatsumi sensei or the shihan, they don't have to be the same as Mr. Tanemura shows them. After all, just looking at Mr. Tanemura's Gyokko Ryû and Kotô Ryû movements as demonstrated in some videos - and even the kamae as demonstrated by his videos and Genbukan practitioners worldwide - they are in many cases different from the way Hatsumi sensei moves and how shihan like Ishizuka sensei shows. Things that can be traced back even to the videos from the 60's and 70's, while Mr. Tanemura was still a student under Hatsumi sensei.

    I have seen a few things from the Ishitani line, and I believe that if you look closely at for example the 2002 Daikomyôsai you can see some movements there as well.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87692 In this thread, where both Troy and jameswhelan participated, people from the Bujinkan claimed to have seen Ishitani-den versions of Oikake Dori, and others.

    As for the 1999 Taikai, I have heard elsewhere as well that at this Taikai Hatsumi sensei said that Ueno Takashi never met Takamatsu sensei for training. Other sources claim that Hatsumi sensei has said this on other occasions as well, regarding both Ueno and Satô Kinbei.

    Of course there is always the possibility that Hatsumi sensei for one reason or the other is not telling the truth. But how is it that there exist no photos of the men together? Or in practice together? And no anecdotes? How much was learned from written transmission and how much from direct transmission?

    In my opinion, this is a very interesting subject. But it seems as if there is no information or even hearsay evidence available - except for claims that they did not meet for training and only received written transmission (which fits with what Satô Kinbei's daughter says on www.jujutsu.com, and the different Kotô Ryû movements demonstrated by Ueno's lineage).
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Paul, we are talking about the 1999 TaiKai, as DJC wrote. Not 1992.

    You yourself wrote on e-budo:

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30181&page=3
     
  3. DJC

    DJC Valued Member

    Good stuff.....

    Hi Troy - thanks for your reply:

    Unfortunately I can't provide a specific example where Hatsumi Sensei is teaching Ishitani den. However, I think we can safely say that Hatsumi Sensei at least learned Ishitani den from Ueno Sensei - its even in the Ueno memorial booklet so this comes from outside the Bujinkan (along with Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Kijin Chosui Ryu, Bokuden Ryu etc).

    It makes sense to me that he learned this system from Takamatsu Sensei too, but I have not seen the proof with my own eyes. In UFTotS it is widely known there are omissions, and that Hatsumi Sensei is publically disseminating the Mizuta line - I've seen nothing regarding Ishitani den and that I will agree to. However, is absence of proof, proof of absence? I appreciate your position none the less - I am certainly not arguing that Hatsumi Sensei is the lineage head of Ishitani den - he doesn't claim it and nor do any of the Bujinkan Shihan.

    I can't speak for the Jinenkan, but Manaka Sensei states on his TYR DVD's that the Jinenkan curriculum contains both lines. If this can be taken as fact where did he learn it from if it wasn't from Hatsumi Sensei? Same can be said for SFR Jutaijutsu…...

    In Japan, my teacher and I learned some Ishitani Den TYR techniques from one Japanese Shihan who specifically stated where they were from and differentiated them from Mizuta den. Norman may wish to comment further, but it was a long time ago and now his legs can't see and his eyes are old and bent.......!

    Thanks for your further input……...
     
  4. DJC

    DJC Valued Member

    Thanks

    Thanks for this - I am specifically referring to the '99 Taikai where Kukishinden Ryu was the theme. It may not have been you who asked the question. Apologies if this is incorrect - also I can only go on Ben Jones translation at the time. If I get time I will transcribe Ben's translation as I think it is pertinent to the thread.

    Best

    DC
     
  5. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    And another birthday looming....
     
  6. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Yep, 30th June, same place as always ;):p
     
  7. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Yeah baby!

    I see the krauts are gonna be about!

    Hehe
     
  8. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Too right haha
     
  9. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    HI Big Will,

    Yes, I agree with you that each teacher has his own movement. However, when I see gyokko ryu or Koto Ryu demonstrated by both org's I see for the most part the substance of the ryu ha. To date, I have not seen anyone demonstrating any Ishitani den. I would be interested in seeing a clip of that Daikomiyosai video. If possible could you post just that section of the Tai Kai.
    As I said, I would believe that Hatsumi probably learned elements of Ishitani den but this is just conjecture. It is no different then my students learning a ton of things from me. You almost forget what you taught them, lol.
    If you look at his book "Unarmed Fighting Secrets of the Samurai" the TYR section here is all Mizuta den.

    DJC
    No probs. However, you stated that Hatsumi learned the Ishitani den from Ueno. I don't think so, Ueno learned Mizuta den version of TYR. This is the line that was passed to Kaminaga, which he is teaching currently.

    Again if someone can post some video of some one in the Bujinkan doing Ishitani den, i would appreciate it.


    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  10. DJC

    DJC Valued Member

    Hatsumi Sensei and Ueno Sensei

    Mornin'

    Just in relation to the ongoing subtopic of Ueno Sensei's training with Takamatsu Sensei and the 1999 Taikai video I referred to. Poryu is correct in that the question itself was around the relationship of Kukishinden Dakentaijutsu and Chosui Ryu Dakentaijutsu. The answer however, suggests to me something different, but please make up your own minds:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDc6M74Y1Ps"]Hatsumi Sensei talking about Ueno Sensei - YouTube[/ame]

    Cheers
     
  11. Tenzan

    Tenzan Valued Member

    Mister Hatsumi told me a long time ago that Tanemura sensei never met Takamatsu sensei. This was in his office in Noda. At that moment he was standing in front of the picture where Takamatsu sensei was doing shime on a young Tanemura sensei on his back.
     
  12. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    @Troy
    My Name is Ferry Perret Gentil, I put it in a lot of posts but not all. I have been training since 1985. So 27 years of training in the BJK.
    I've been a personal student of SvenEric Bogsater and Marriette van der Vliet for almost 20 years. Ive been in Japan several times, have lived there for a short period of time.
    Now I study under Kacem.

    My grade is not really relevant but its higher than tenth dan.
    I have refused grading in Japan more than 5 times, so I could have been 15th dan if that was my ambition, but I think dangrades in the BJK are worth less than the paper they are printed on.

    I have never been in Hatsumi senseis vaults but I have seen some things that belong in there.

    I think you focus on the name that was passed too much.
    For instance at the SFR Dakentaijutsu that was passed to Hatsumi sensei.
    If you look in the densho I have seen it starts with the Jutaijutsu.

    So if you have not looked at all Hatsumi senseis densho you have not really a good idea at what was transmitted to him by Takamatsu sensei.
    I have seen some of it, but I know people that have seen a lot of it. The little bit I have seen makes me crazy because there is stuff in there that everybody believes does not exist....
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  13. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    HI Pankeeki,

    Pleasure to meet you. Thank you for answering my question. Good to see another old timer is still hanging in there. The good old 80's!

    Yes, I agree with you, there is a lot of information that is not out there. There is also a lot of information that should stay behind closed doors.

    I will disagree a bit with you. When referring to traditional ryu ha the name is very important.

    Anyways, thank you for taking the time to answer my question.
    All the best in your training.




    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  14. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    DJC,

    Interesting video. There is a story of Ueno coming to see Takamatsu and being knocked out by a mae geri underneath the chin. Has anyone heard this story.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  15. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Thanks for that! Hatsumi sensei's reply is pretty clear on at least his opinion of Ueno Takashi's and Takamatsu sensei's relationship as far as training goes.

    This is exactly the kind of anecdote I was hoping someone would bring to the table. Can you please elaborate on it? Was it during training? Or during a meeting? Why did Takamatsu sensei knock him out?
     
  16. Tenzan

    Tenzan Valued Member

    And what about the hamon for going around the back of a teacher to get to that teacher's teacher?
     
  17. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    I don't quite understand the point you are so eloquently trying to make?
     
  18. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    There is a story going around for years that Hatsumi sensei got Hamon from Ueno Takeshi for going behind his back to Takamatsu sensei. Hatsumi sensei got several MK from Ueno sensei when he trained with him. Ueno was the one who told Hatsumi sensei about Takamatsu sensei.

    The real story is slightly different and is quite funny...
     
  19. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    Sigh.....ok Paneeki tell us this "funny" story. I hope its as funny as when Hatsumi for years told many over and over that he was the only student of Takamatsu Sensei. This was said by him several times in the 80s and 90s in various articles and various Tai Kais through out that period of time before people had heard of names like Kimura, Sato Kinbei, Ueno, Fukumoto, and still several others....I first read of them in the first Bufu newsletter from Tanemura Sensei in around 92 prior to that I only knew of Akimoto.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  20. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Lol! I saw the original where your spellcheck thingy changed sensei into senseless!!!

    However..I cant help thinking that "only" student was actually meant to be translated as "only true" student.

    Of course i could be wrong. I do think people often translate soke's words too literally.
     

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