New interview with Kacem Zoughari

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Pankeeki, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    By proof I mean photographs and the like. Obviously people like Wideman Kyoshi have been told things by Tanemura Soke, so I really wasn't including them in my sweeping statement. I guess I didn't think you'd consider that proof. I apologize if I misread your intention.
     
  2. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    No worries. I'm pretty sure there aren't photos of them in training together, at least not any made public, but there should be at least a few anecdotes and stories floating around.
     
  3. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Cool! I don't doubt at all the fact that Satô Kinbei had students, though. So that doesn't help much...
     
  4. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Ok, I can accept that for some reason, during the two or so decades of training, Hatsumi sensei chose to show the two lines to everyone of his original students except for Mr. Tanemura, to whom he only showed the Mizutani line.

    Sorry, I must have missed this part - what exactly did Kimura Masaji confirm?

    It's not completely impossible to learn some things from makimono and densho, especially if one is already skilled in other martial arts. Of course it would be a personal interpretation of the written transmission, but you can still understand some stuff to a certain extent. For example, we can look at the short video clip available on youtube of Kaminaga Shigemi's line of Kotô Ryû Koppôjutsu coming from Ueno Takashi. While taking into account that it is an enbu - so perhaps the movements were changed - the way of moving is so different from what comes through Hatsumi sensei and people like Ishizuka sensei who have menkyô kaiden, that either Ueno Takashi and Hatsumi sensei were taught completely different ways of moving... or one of them perhaps did not get enough practice. So, how much did Ueno Takashi actually practice with Takamatsu sensei?

    We can argue that of course Ueno had training, since he passed on the line to Kaminaga Shigemi. But this doesn't really say much, unfortunately.

    Now, to Troy and everyone else in the Genbukan, this in no way is meant to be disrespectful toward Mr. Tanemura. This is just a highly personal reaction to jameswhelan's statements regarding Hatsumi sensei's line of Takagi Yôshin Ryû to be "muddled up" and "modernized". My question arose from curiosity and I thought that people from the Genbukan had perhaps heard stories regarding Ueno Takashi and Satô Kinbei and their actual practice with Takamatsu sensei. Obviously I was wrong.

    Hypothetically, it is possible (I'm not saying that I believe this though) that Mr. Tanemura received training in both the Ishitani and Mizutani lines under his twenty or so years of training under Hatsumi sensei. And then later, after leaving Hatsumi sensei, receiving the densho and sôkeship in the Ishitani line from Satô Kinbei. Of course he would never say that this is the case (nobody would!).

    It's all of course just speculation and in the end it doesn't matter and casts no bad reflection on Mr. Tanemura. He is an amazing martial artist and his movement and skill stands as enough proof to legitimize himself. The question mark, in my eyes, still remains above Ueno Takashi and Satô Kinbei, but that is probably a subject that will not be made clearer here on this forum.
     
  5. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    HI Big Will,

    No offence taken. However, I still have not seen to date anyone in the Bujinkan demonstrating the Ishitani den line. Can you point me to a source that shows someone demonstrating the ishitani den line?

    This would be most interesting.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  6. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    Hi Big Will,

    You also made a statement that Tanemura Sensei learned Ishitani den from Hatsumi. Where do you get this information from? Hatsumi's Sokeship is in Mizuta den - takagi yoshin ryu jutaijutsu. I believe this is just conjecture on your part. If not can you point me to a demonstration of some patterns other then the public ones already shown by the Genbukan.


    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  7. DJC

    DJC Valued Member

    Interesting conversation. Just a few thoughts from me:

    1) Can point to current BJK Shihan who have showed Ishitani Den TYR. Not personally seen Hatsumi Sensei teach it (that I know of!). I agree with Big Will's proposal that some of the other original Shihan were taught Ishitani Den - eg Manaka Sensei teaches both lines as part of the Jinenkan curriculum. Perhaps someone from the Jinenkan (Dr Greenfield perhaps) could confirm this aspect?

    2) Re: Ueno Sensei - Anyone remember the 1999 UK Taikai? Hatsumi Sensei held a quick Q&A session. Along with some stupid questions around the power of dreams, someone (possibly could have been Poryu on this forum from memory) asked about Takamatsu Sensei's relationship with Ueno Sensei. Hatsumi S. categorically stated that the 2 men never met in person and that all densho were given as part of some kind of Koryu research committee, which if I also remember correctly, Sato Kimbei was part of. Ueno Sensei certainly had the Mizuta TYR Jujutsu line and some of the Densho can be seen in the Ueno memorial booklet. The Q&A session is on the Taikai video if anyone still has a VCR player……..

    3) To me, this kind of lends credence to jameswhelan's view that Hatsumi Sensei received a later transmission where the name was changed to TYR Jutaijutsu, but his transmission contains an amalgam of both Ishitani and Mizuta lines. I've not seen Hatsumi Sensei's Soke certificate for TYR, so I don't know, but to me it's kind of like Hatsumi Sensei claiming to be 28th Soke of Kukishinden Happo Biken, when his certificate signed by Takamatsu Sensei and Kuki Takaharu (need this confirmed) clearly states Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu. Something similar maybe going on with TYR - would be interested if anyone could hed any light about this aspect.

    4) Re TYR in general, I suggest there is also a close familial tie with the Takamatsu family anyway, where it is said that his father had menko in the school and it is documented again in the memorial booklet that Takamatsu Yukichi (Takamatsu's uncle) had MK from Ishitani Takeo (so he was possibly a peer of Ishitani Matsutaro, but don't have dates to hand to confirm if they align)

    Lastly - I'm no historian, so if anyone has better/more accurate information then I'd be interested to hear it and pleased to be corrected…….

    Laters
     
  8. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    He received both lines from Takamatsu sensei and the densho that contains the two lines.

    confirmed, and as soke he has the right to change the name.
     
  9. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    DJC,

    I am sorry to say put some of your points are off. First off, do I know for sure if Hatsummi ever learned Ishiani den, no I can't say for sure. It would make sense that he learned elements of it. However, this is just conjecture on my part and everyone else's. Show me where he is teaching elements of it. I have all the old video's from the 80's when manaka was going around teaching the ryu ha "Takagi Yoshin Ryu" and "No" he is not teaching Ishitani den. I have asked some of his higher ranks as to why Mr. Manaka's TYR is completely different from Hatsummi's but no one has answered me yet. Manaka's Menkyo is in Mizuta den not Ishitani den. I also have all the old video's from the Bujinkan from the 80's etc and there is no Ishitani den being taught.

    Again, Hatsummi's book "Unarmed fighting Secrets" TYR that is described is Mizuta den, not Ishitani den! Please point me to the video or you yourself demonstrate some Ishitani den TYR patterns, Not the ones that are publically demonstrated by the Genbukan already. I have not seen it to date.



    Pankeeki,

    Where did you receive this information from. Hatsummi's densho say Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ju Taijutsu, this is not Ishitani den.


    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman

     
  10. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    How many of Hatsumi senseis Densho have you seen personally?
    Have you ever looked into his vaults to see what he all received from Takamatsu sensei?
    Do you know how many densho he received from Takamatsu sensei?
    How many TYR densho?
     
  11. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    Hello Pankeeki,

    NO of course not, I have only seen all the information that has been discussed publicaly. This includes all the densho that have been shown publically. Does this mean that you have been allowed into his vault and have some new information. Just out of curiousity, what is your rank in the bujinkan, when did you begin training?

    Pankeeki, look if you have information that know one else has then you had better be able to prove it publically. It is well know fact that Hatsummi's licence in TYR is in the Mizuta den line. Now your telling me that he has Ishitani den, how do you know this. This would be interesting information.

    I am still interested to know your rank and length in the bujinkan. Also who you train under. Gives me a background to know the level of experience I am speaking with. Mine is easy, I don't use a fake name, I am all over the internet.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  12. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Uh oh! How did we arrive at "what's your grade"?
     
  13. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    Okay, what is wrong with asking this????? Would you discuss the principles of sutemi waza with a white belt. Why is this a bad question. Pankeeki is alluding to the fact he has some inside knowledge. This could possibly only be gained by maybe one of the 15th dan's or of similar rank. I doubt a lower rank would be allowed to get the type of information he is discussing.
     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I think it was the moment we got to answering a question with a question.

    Mr Wideman asked some interesting things, imo, it would of been nice if Pankeeki had at least attempted to answer them.

    It's no good for discussion if you just pass the buck by asking a question back in response to something that was rather direct, it makes you look like you are dodging the issue.
     
  15. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Nothing wrong with it, I suppose, but it usually indicates imminent thread-lockage.

    Maybe it's me, but it sounds...like pulling rank to add weight to an argument.

    Im sure you didn't mean it that way though.
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Generally speaking though when it comes to the discussn of the content of a ryu-ha or its structure then rank does have some weight.
     
  17. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Well maybe...

    Let's see what Pankeeki says then.
     
  18. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Valued Member

    HI Gapjumper,

    No I didn't. I still don't understand what is the issue with asking this question. Mr. Pankeeki was stating as if he had specific information on Bujinkan Ryu Ha that goes against all the information that has been put out there to date. I was then asking him to qualify his credentials to confirm he might have access to this information. This is one of the problems with forums and the internet, all kinds of people can give their opinions.

    When asked if I saw hatsumi's scrolls, I do not beat around the bush but speak directly and say, "Of Course Not", I was working off all the books, videos, and other documentation that Hatsumi has released over the years. The information is also backed up by constant other high ranking bujinkan instructors. I then relate this information to the ranking and knowledge my teacher Tanemura Sensei has within the ryu ha, as well as myself.
    If this information has changed I want to be able to qualify where this new information is coming from. Is it heresay, or actual knowledge of the ryu ha within the Bujinkan.

    It is no different then the Gyokko Ryu Scroll that Mr. Zoughari has, until more information comes to light about it and its line, we can't comment any further. The fact that there is a Gyokko Ryu scroll and people have viewed it gives weight to some of the information. This I find interesting on a academic level about Gyokko Ryu. I hope he releases more information about his document.

    Hope I have explained myself well enough. I definitely do not want the thread to be locked or bickering to begin. Just information, (not heresay) that can enhance all our knowledge on the different ryu ha within the Takamatsu den.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  19. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Troy,

    I dont have a stake in the history and mk's at all, or the holders of scrolls.

    Im not a k-club man either.

    Didn't mean to poke at the grade question...just saw it there as fair game. Plenty of nasty incidents have occurred around the question previously....

    I too have seen the [kacem] gyokko ryu scroll and also a sdfr one (both photocopies only) mentioning tojutsu and iai respectively. I've no idea as to their age or validity...but they looked legit to my uneducated minces. Ie the kanji of the ryu were on the same page of A4! Some of the stuff was in kanbun (?) i think as i did not recognise most of it.

    I also saw some stuff Noguchi sensei had about gyokko ryu bojutsu. It was in his own hand (i think) so I cannot compare it to the other.

    The stuff I saw of kacems was all text. Sdfr and gyokko.

    Noguchi senseis was text and stick-men.



    Crap info i know...but thought I'd chuck it into the mix.


    Best,
    G
     
  20. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    HI

    This needs calrifying.

    I did not ask this question at all, and all too often many people claim I did (as happened a few weeks back on facebook).

    The question I asked was completely different and I still have the 1992 taikai video (now converted to DVD) and my question is not on it at all.

    No one else at the Taikai asked any other question in relation to Ueno Takashi and Sato Kinbei etc.

    I remember the exact question I asked and what the answer was. The question related to 2 different Ryu ha. Hatsumi Sensei mention Ueno takashi in Passing in the answer. I dont recollect him saying that Ueno Takashi did not meet or did not train with Takamatsu. If someone else has a completely different version of the video of the 1992 UK taikai with my question on it I would be interested to see it.

    Also in that Q&A Hatsumi did not mention the densho being given to any research team etc.
     

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