New guy in my MT gym is a nazi.

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by IrishStomp, Sep 24, 2005.

  1. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That's funny. The Nazi's killed millions of Russians, but I never heard anyone say that the Russians should therefore have learned to be nice to other people. Ditto every other nationality in Europe who lost people in Nazi camps. (Which is most countries in Europe, to one degree or another.)

    But that's different I suppose, because they are Christian countries. For Jews on the other hand, it's a different set of rules. Israel is supposed to set an example to the rest of the world because six million Jews were murdered. Why? Why can't Israel be judged by the same standards as every other country? Why must Jews be judged by different standards than Christians? :confused:
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Who's judging them differently?
    The Russians are no great example to hold up... they have an terrible record in regards to the way they treat non-Russians. It's neither here nor there.

    They Jews almost got wiped out and they were hell bent on doing the same thing to Palestinians. Because they're the lap dog of US foreign policy in the region is the only reason they never had to actually worry about how they treated the Palestinians.

    It wouldn't matter if they were Christian or whatever... the way they on one hand never let anyone forget the holocaust and on the other hand treat the Palestinians the way they do is lame - for lack of a better word.
     
  3. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    He wasn't, he was actually jewish... :D
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
    You're jokin' right?!
    Let me guess he was bald so that his yarmulka could form an airtight seal! :D
     
  5. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    No, I'm definately not joking... :eek:
     
  6. Funky Phantom

    Funky Phantom Valued Member

    Israel is judged by the same standards as everyone else, possibly even more leniently than others, if what is happening to the Palestinians in Israel was happening to another group in say an African country then the UN and possibly the US also would be condemning them for human rights violations, but as it's Isreal it's just taken as the norm and not much is said. In fact a lot of people that do say anything are accused of being anti-semitic.

    It irritates me deeply that nowadays anti-semitism has often come to be used in such a way as to mean 'people the Jews hate' rather than 'people that hate the Jews'. Attempting to defend the actions of Israel by crying anti-semitism in the direction of its critics is contemptable.

    Also, you try and lump all Christian countries together as if the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches and their many subdivisions felt a real sense of brotherhood and hadn't fought wars over religion for hundreds of years in the past. Are you genuinely attempting to paint the issue of Israel as some sort of Christians vs Jews thing?

    Edit: I completely forgot this was the Thai Kickboxing forum, how the hell did this discussion get onto Israel-Palestine? :confused:
     
  7. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Who is judging them? You are. You link the Holocaust to Israeli government policy as though Israel is supposed to be squeaky clean because of what happened in the past. I'm saying that no-one evr uses that argument for any other country. So that is judging them differently. Simple as that.

    Comparing what the Nazi's did to the Jews with what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is lame. Israel has no gas chambers.

    I'm not defending or justifying anything which the Israeli government does, but trying to link it back to the Holocaust and implying that 'Jews should be nicer because of what they suffered' is hypocritical nonsense.
     
  8. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    I think this thread has gone waaaaaaay off topic. Maybe we should create another thread for this discussion.
     
  9. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That's international power-politics for you! But as long as people keep using 'Israel' and 'Jewish people' as though they were synonymous then yes, you'll hear people cry foul when other people use Israeli policies as an justification to have a go at Jewish people in general. It becomes a bit chicken-and-egg, in my experience. People start off critisising Israel, then end up slagging off Jewish people. But maybe that's what they wanted to do all along?

    What about all the Jewish people who protest against Israeli government policy? Like Mordechai Vanunu, jailed for years for whistleblowing on Israel's secret nuclear weapons programme? All that is conveniently ignored by those who are determined to compare Jewish people with Nazis.

    And who is lumping all Christian countries together? Not me. The only thing that all Christian countries have in common is anti-semitism. ;) There you made me say it.
     
  10. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    *IGNORANCE ALERT*

    Sorry, but that is a massive generalization. Not all Christian countries are anti-semite... if you state this fact, then please provide evidence of this.
     
  11. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    * WINK ALERT *

    Comments followed by a wink should not be taken at face value.

    But seriously, there is anti-semitism in EVERY Christian country. Not from everyone (obviously) but it exists. It's like any form of racism or bigotry - no country is immune from it. Because we are all human, and racism is a regrettable human trait, I'm afraid.
     
  12. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    You're absolutely right there, but I think the anti-muslim sentiments are higher than anti-semitism at the moment.
     
  13. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I'm afraid that Islam has been made into the New Bogeyman since the Cold War ended. And racists being the way they are, that means they think it's open season on Muslims.

    Did you read that thread about a gang of nutters in England attacking a Muslim man and his pregnant wife? It makes you wonder how far we've really progressed since the stone age.
     
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I don't see how anyone would expect any different as many of the people in Israel and running Israel are holocaust survivors. You would think that somewhere along the way they'd

    'Hmmm we got a raw deal from the Nazi's... maybe we should rethink our actions with the Palestinians.'

    Like I said... it's often too much to ask people to learn from history... even when they are/were at the epicenter as a people. And before you get your panties bunched... again the same can be applied to many other peoples. Including the Americans... ooops! No shocker there... who props up Israel in the middle east?!

    That same arguement could be applied to many other countries and they're foreign policies. America being the first... simple as that.

    LOL! :D Technicalities. It makes slight difference to those living in Gaza or the West Bank that can't really do much with their lives because othe Isreali's.

    I don't quite get the hyprocritial part. Like I said the same arguement could be applied to many other countries and probably is. But you are sure to get an earful from Jews anytime the holocaust issue comes up... but the tune changes conveniently when it comes to the Palenstinians. Funny that. :D
     
  15. Funky Phantom

    Funky Phantom Valued Member

    As long as those that make the criticism specify that they are aiming their criticism at Israel as a state and not the Jews as a people, then I see no grounds for labelling them anti-semitic, provided the criticism is reasonable and based on facts. I disagree with the idea that most people that criticise Israel resort to anti-semitism and the assumption that most critics of Israel are anti-semitic on some level, be it overt or through subtle undertones, is just a sign that Israel doesn't have a leg to stand on a lot of the time and so plays the racism card in an attempt to discredit their detractors, having failed to answer their arguments. Political debate in this fashion is dirty and dishonest.

    Many in the pro-Israel camp would deny realities of the Israeli treatment of Palestinian people. There are idiots on both sides that are uninterested in the truth and would rather win the argument than see things improved.

    In your post I responded to before you referred to Russia as a 'Christian country' and while this may be true, followers of the Russian Orthodox Church would not consider them to be that close to say an American Protestant or a French Catholic as your grouping of 'Christian' would imply.
     
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I think you'll find that the vast majority of the senior politicians and military men in Israel are Mizrahim. They (or their forebears) mostly came to Israel as refugees when they were driven out of Muslim countries. (Although some were in what is now Israel all along.)

    Ever noticed that whenever you see coverage of Israeli Jews protesting asgainst mistreatment of Palestinians they always seem to be Ashkenazi? Are you starting to see the pattern yet? I am.

    Technicalities? You think that the difference between planned, systematic genocide on the one hand and political oppression on the other is a 'technicality'? That's bizarre.

    Hypocritical in the sense of having double standards: one for Jews and another for Christians. And implying that every Jewish person everywhere has some kind of moral responsibility for the actions of the government of Israel.
     
  17. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I agree with you completely. I'm not saying that every critic of Israel is anti-semitic (and many critics of Israel are Jewish) but I'm afraid I've had the experience of a number of anti-semites who conduct their argument in exactly the way that I described.

    True, as in any conflict.

    Well I was pointing out that anti-semitism has been common to all Christian countries over the years. But if you want to make comparisons between the various Christian denominations then I think that is splitting hairs as far as this point goes. Pogroms were not unique to Russia.
     
  18. Funky Phantom

    Funky Phantom Valued Member

    I wouldn't say that the anti-semitism was necessarily linked to the fact that the countries were Christian, otherwise surely all Christian countries would have rather similar histories in terms of the experiences of Jews in those countries? You cannot generalise the experiences of Jews across Europe in history, as their experiences in different countries will vary based on the size of the Jewish population in the country, the attitude taken towards Jews in those countries (both in legal terms and by people on a day to day basis) and various other socio-economic factors.

    You seem to be lumping all Christian countries together here with regards to their treatement of Jews, which is clearly incorrect historically.
     
  19. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Sure there are differences between countries, but even countries which at times have been very enlightened have at other times in their history experienced a lot of bigotry. England is a good example of this.
     
  20. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    While that may be true many of the citizens of Israel that support the occupation of Palestinian territories and make up the political party constituencies of the policiticans are survivors of the holocaust.

    I am curiosu how you tell the difference between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews just by looking at them? :confused: Especially given that most of the coverage of the protests is no more than news lite at best with 15 seconds total... including soundbites.

    A very planned and systematic and brutal oppression of the Palestinians doesn't make the comparsion as bizarre as you'd like to make it out. That much of the oppression is supported by people that were victims of the holocaust or children of vicitims of the holocaust does make it highly ironic though. Seems to me Hitler started out with many of the oppressive tactics against Jews that Israeli's have taken against the Palestinians.

    Obviously you didn't read my earlier post. Go back and read it and you'll find that no where do I draw a line that says only Jews are held to this standard. This was something you interjected. Many Christians could/should also be held to this standard. I'll repost what I've already posted if that isn't clear enough for you.

    If you read carefully you'll see that I noted that many others and specifically Americans could easily be put under the same microscope on many of the same issues and with the same comparisons and analogies. So go back and read what was posted before you try to play the hypocritical card.

    I alwasy find it interesting that anytime anyone criticizes Israel they are instantly made into a Nazi. It's a phenomena that is epidemic in the United States... What?!?!? You dare say anything against Israel?!?! YOU MUST BE AN ANTI-SEMITE!! YOU MUST BE IN LEAGUE WITH HITLER!!

    LOL! What a load of tripe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2005

Share This Page