New Bo Staff Tricks!!!(Neck Rolls and Release Moves)

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by xmawut, Mar 30, 2008.

  1. Gussigan

    Gussigan Valued Member

    careful what you say, him and his marching band might track you down :p
     
  2. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    i was replying to the post on drop stances, not the xma vid
     
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I am in total agreement with you . I was replying to both. I should have made that clear.

    best regards koyo
     
  4. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    I don't understand just why it is that XMAers get the hate that they do here. They do not claim to teach any historical weapon arts, and nor do they claim to teach any form of armes-blancs combatives.

    Just how relevant is knowing how to fight at all when swinging horrifically outmoded weapons? Few of us will ever need to know just how useful our halberd technique is at unhorsing enemy soldiers.

    Admirable, but hardly necessarily true. What's your explanation for the historical existence of things like iai-nuki in Japan?

    Or consider the origins of Brazil's maculele; although most today practice it as an offshoot of capoeira, much of its origins stem from street shows invented to impress tourists.

    True, but who goes into combat wielding a Chinese dragon-pole or a British quarter-staff?
     
  5. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    When the martial arts became popular outside of Japan many of the original shihan were against the popularisation because they thought that the arts divorced from their culture would lose their essence and be used by "those with only a basic knowledge" to enhance their ego, make money and dilute the arts to their own wishes".I am uncomfortable with the direction XMA has taken the arts.

    While modern day practisioners shall not enter into combat with a weapon the principles trained using a weapon properly involve zanshin awareness timing distancing , the use of the spirit body and technique pragmatically as one. Much of what is called XMA lacks the basic principles and promotes flashy techniques that have no relevance to traditional martial arts at all.

    I have trained in sword and stick for maaany years and I do not enjoy seeing those weapons used as entertainment. Martial arts are not entertainment they are arts worthy of respect and lifelong study.

    regards koyo
     
  6. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    I can agree with your opinion on the direction XMA may take the martial arts, but this is a non-sequitur. Commercialistic dilution of martial arts predates both the XMA phenomenon as well as their exportation outside Asia. (Shinmen Musashi, for an example, mentioned centuries ago that commercialistic repackaging and stylization for its own sake were things to be avoided ["...having them abandon the bad aspects of the 'five ways' or 'six ways' of martial arts, so that they naturally enter the real science of warriors..." in the Wind Scroll, to use Thomas Cleary's translation].)

    Quite true. But who among the XMA'ers claim to have relevance to traditional martial arts?

    I don't like it myself either, but that doesn't deny its legitimacy for its purpose.

    Once again, not necessarily true. What is your explanation for the existence of iai-nuki then, as I asked before? What, again, of the origins of maculele, or of the use and active practice of contemporary movie wire-fu? Or, may Kanzeon give us mercy, musical forms in traditional martial arts?

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5797252753994702892&hl=en

    The attitude you display is, again, admirable, but the martial arts, neither historically nor currently, have never really been somehow special or pure nor somehow necessarily divorced from all but some sort of Jedi-like dedication to pure artistry or combat. Martial arts as a performance art is not a contemporary phenomenon.
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The attitude I display while admirable (my thanks) is not at all unique in traditional martial arts. I have the good fortune to have a number of friends who are shihan in japanese martial arts and have cross trained with them for years to a man I am certain that they would not view those videos as martial arts.

    One need only look at katori shinto ryu to see that the true nature of martial arts still exist today.

    Regarding XMA my fear is where will it end? because similar practices existed in the past does not justify their continuation.

    Below a composite advertising an IKET (international kendo training and demonstration event) Everyone there showed the same respect and dedication expected of a martial artists.I would say that all of us who took part were "divorced" from all but a serious dedication to out respective arts.
    I am pragmatic enough to accept that there may be an audience for XMA but to equate them with traditional japanese arts (white kit black belt 2nd video) is to present them in the wrong light.

    I have trained in japanese martial arts all my adult life and would say I realise their true value. I see little of value other than entertainmant on those videos. Perhaps I have stumbled into the wrong thread.


    regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2008
  8. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    I'm actually dubious of this. In the Shui Hu Zhuan (Outlaws of the Marsh/The Water Margin), a 14th century Chinese novel and my favorite book ever, there are mentions of warriors putting on shows with spears and sabers in the street to earn money. Thus, from this text, we know that people have been using martial arts for performance purposes in China for at least the past 600 years.
    Looking at some traditional CMA forms, especially traditional longfist forms, there are moves which seem to be clearly designed for aesthetic purposes only. Such as the above mentioned drop stance. While some movements may be martial in nature, or derived from martial movements, the overall form seems modified with the goal of impressing an audience in mind.
    Also, as far as I can tell, form-based training (kata/hyungs/tao lu) is rooted in the Chinese martial arts tradition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but traditional Koryu Japanese arts don't use much in the way of kata. They don't seem to be present at all in HEMA. It seems primarily karate, kenpo, taekwondo, and other martial arts that have a heavy influence of CMA somewhere in there history.
    What I'm saying is, a lot of so-called "traditional" forms likely have aspects of orientation towards performance.
    It could even well be that somewhere along the line an instructor didn't realize that low drop stances and tornado kicks and whatever it you're doing at the beginning of Heian Yondan where added to make the kata more aesthetically pleasing, and started teaching them under the assumption that they must have martial value because they're in the "traditional" form.
    So please, get off the high horse about forms.
     
  9. SteyrAUG

    SteyrAUG Valued Member

    He'd make a fine cheerleader.

    They know nothing about weapons either.
     
  10. beer_belly

    beer_belly Valued Member

    Lots of weapon based koryu are almost entirely forms based - too dangerous to have it otherwise. If you look at Shinto Muso Ryu jodo the curriculum is sets of ever more advanced forms strung together in kata that, while each step has riai, often do not have a single cohesive story.
     
  11. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    I know the debate has moved on but i'm still laughing at indies face!

    As for that second video of a supposed world champion. If bobbing your head up and down and continuously changing height is tradtitional nower days........i'll be world champion in no time. And if it's XMA why does bobbig your head and changing height make it any better? Just looks worse and i thaught the whole point of XMA was display.
     
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I see you had a visit from Dave Rubens. Good friend of mine give him my regards if you are in contact with him.

    regards koyo
     
  13. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    Would do but i couldn't claim to know him personally. Recently just started back at training (due to uni/lazyness) so don't know the last time he was up. He's an outstanding aikidoka. I've only trained in 2 or three seminars with him wish it was more. See you're not to far away. Will let you know of any seminars that come our way that might interest you.

    Anyway.......back to topic :D


    Thanks,
    Jamie
     

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