Naihanchi & Sanchin

This is a new thread just to answer some of Sonshu's questions to me on the now defunct kata thread.

Firstly Naihanchi.

Sonshu, you said that Naihanchi has some good moves in it, but that some are of no martial value. I disagree. Naihanchi is IMO riddled with practical and highly effective applications. There isn't a single move that hasn't got effective applications as far as I'm concerned, even the opening salutation. Of course, (as I keep saying), you have to get away from the modern versions and you have to bear in mind that there can be some degree of abstractness about it (otherwise there could only possibly be one application for each movement). If there are any particular moves from the kata you'd like to discuss, then I'm happy to examine any move in detail.

Now Sanchin

The reason I haven't practiced martial applications for Sanchin is as follows.....Sanchin isn't formally a part of most Shorin ryu systems, it being the first, or core, kata of the Shorei ryu systems (eg. Goju ryu, Uechi ryu). Many Shorin ryu practitioners consider that Naihanchi serves a similar purpose in the Shorin tradition. So I've never formally learnt Sanchin. I first picked it up in a couple of training sessions with someone who I consider to be an excellent Goju teacher. He taught me the basic Goju version, although obviously with such limited time I wasn't going to get it very well. I don't like the standard Goju version though, with all its dynamic tension. My blood pressure runs a bit high as it is, so I have no desire to pump it up any more. Instead I modified the kata to bring it more in line with what I'd being told about an Uechi version of the kata, ie. the hands are kept open. Having played with it in the last few years I've had a few thoughts about skills that this kata in particular teaches:

1. A sense of connection between the hands and abdomen.
2. Practice in 'inner circular' stances, which are very useful for being able to switch between a very mobile posture and a very rooted posture.
3. Generating power in a rooted posture.
4. Building on point 1, training in synergistic use of the muscles of the torso, legs and arms.
5. Maintaining a degree of resilience to being hit even while stepping forwards or backwards.
6. Not over-extending when pushing.

These are just the core lessons for me. As you can see from this list, what the hands are doing is not the most important part of the kata as far as I'm concerned. I have more than enough self-defence techniques in the Shorin kata so I'm quite happy to simply use Sanchin to train the above skills. I do know Goju people though who are keen on the applications of Sanchin.

Mike

 

How many moves are there in those kata's Mike?

And how long does it take to teach, to a level where students can start to understand them?

 

Sanchin is very short. 3 steps forward and 2 back. Very repetitive hand movements. It shouldn't take very long at all to remember the sequence.

Naihanchi is also fairly short. Very little stepping. There are about 12 hand techniques, which are then repeated in mirror image.

I would think longer to remember the sequence than Sanchin.

As to how long to understand them, how long is a piece of string? A student should start to get something out of them after a few weeks study, but they can also be studying them for years. In the old Shorin tradition it was common to study Naihanchi 1 for 3 years, followed by Naihanchi 2 for 3 years and, yup you guessed it, Naihanchi 3 for a further 3 years.

On the other hand, in the last couple of weeks, I taught some of the principles of Sanchin to 2 of my shiatsu clients. They both grasped what I was showing them within about 10 minutes. Neither of them had any martial experience whatsoever.

Mike

 

They spent a massive amount of time studying these, what did that involve, breaking down the kata's to various drill exercises and techniqure practice? And not running through the kata over and over!?

 

As far as I understand this involved:
1. practising the individual movements
2. practising the movements together as sequences and eventually the whole kata
3. Two man partner drills based on the kata
4. Applications

There was much repetition, but also there was much useful self-defence material encoded within each kata. These were people who would, and could, build a whole self-defence system around one or two kata.

That is my understanding of it anyway, based on all that I have read and learned from other martial artists.

Mike

 

Mike

I have some pictures of Naihanchi Kata (could not get any video footage of it) its added under Karate photos, pending approval.

Can you explain to me the moves in each pose. Covering hands and stance and use?

I will keep it brief though as wanna keep this to one thread so as not to upset our moderator (he has locked the Kata thread) gutted or what!

NOTE - I am not having a go just want to go over this with you so you Kata guys can explain to me where you feel I am going wrong.

Thanks fellah's

SONSHU

 

No problem, and no offence taken. I'm always happy to discuss applications. As soon as your pictures appear I'll have a look.

Mike

 

You see they might be different to your version

of the Kata.

I understand all this and really have tried to be objective in MOST of what I have said on this subject.

If I could find out how to add video links to the site from my PC I would send you some stunningly in-effective katas.

Glad to hear you can help as on the kata thread I have been trying to avoid a bitch kids row - its hard though, good to see people feel strong about it though.

SONSHU

 

Hi Mike,

You said-
"Firstly Naihanchi.

Sonshu, you said that Naihanchi has some good moves in it, but that some are of no martial value. I disagree. Naihanchi is IMO riddled with practical and highly effective applications. There isn't a single move that hasn't got effective applications as far as I'm concerned, even the opening salutation. Of course, (as I keep saying), you have to get away from the modern versions and you have to bear in mind that there can be some degree of abstractness about it (otherwise there could only possibly be one application for each movement). If there are any particular moves from the kata you'd like to discuss, then I'm happy to examine any move in detail."

Would you mind telling me where you gained this knowledge of the moves in Naihanchi? And if you can, tell me where you think those that taught you gained their knowledge? If you have created your own based on others or mixed and matched then I have no problem with that, I'm just interested.

Do you know any of the associated kuden (oral transmission) and where did you pick that up from? The opening technique of the outstretched hand, elbow strike and chambered fists.. how do you interpret that? Please don't take this as a personal attack, I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from based on your statement above.

 

Now this is part of my point

You should not need to interpret it as anything it should be plainly obvious of its martial benefit.

I know you are talking to Mike so I'll let him have his say and I have another pic to add.

Thanks

SONSHU

 

Hi Bob

I'm afraid I don't have any exciting new take on direct transmission from the 19th century. My understanding of the bunkai comes from a variety of sources - Vince, Rick Clark, Patrick McCarthy, Bruce Miller, even Dillman up to a point (although you probably know I'm not a fan of 'melting metal with fire' and all of that TCM stuff.). And of course through my own experimentation and melding of ideas I've got from different people. So its largely reverse engineered. That said I have had some exposure to bunkai that's come via some of the American and Australian students of Hohan Soken. Sadly though much of this stuff seems very basic and definitely falls into the class of 'children's karate'.

In defence of reverse engineering (not that I particularly feel the need to defend it but it would be nice to get some direct transmission of value) I note that the highly respected Okinawan Sensei whom our group was associated with for a time actually encouraged us to do this sort of reverse engineering for ourselves.

Fair question Bob, no problem. I like the application that I got from Vince - nikyo (for the salutation) followed by a knee strike, back hand slap to the neck/occiput, elbow the head/neck then grab the head ready for….the next bit of the kata. Looking at the moves individually, the outstretched arm could be indicative of just about any situation in which you attack the head with a back-hand slap or ridge hand (I also do a version where the hand is palm-up). The elbow, any situation where you pull the target towards the elbow strike (or at least hold it in place), not in the sterile way that is sometimes seen in Shotokan bunkai though, where it's a question of strength against strength. Rather, I use it where the assailant's balance is already broken or where the 'pulling' hand is helping to break their balance. In addition, the elbow strike could be used as a choke (either instead of or immediately after using it to strike). Chambering the hands: I see this as indicative of using both hands to draw a grabbed limb/head into your own hip (the next two techniques might be striking, or rolling the limb over or applying a lock). Indeed the chamber position might be viewed as a lock itself. I imagine none of this is rocket science for you Bob

Mike

 

Why must it be plainly obvious? I can think of two reasons why it wouldn't be, just off the top of my head.

1. An application is plainly obvious only if the movement in the kata matches the application exactly. But to make it do so removes the generic nature of the movement. You'd be saying this movement means exactly this, and nothing else. It would be a one-to-one correspondence. I believe that kata movements (and karate basics) are multi-purpose tools. The correspondence is one-to-many. The movements are by their very nature presented in a slightly abstract form - more abstract in some kata than others.

One of my teachers, Rick Clark, has just published a book called '75 down blocks', ie. he has 75 different applications for downward block. I haven't got a copy yet, and I don't imagine that I'll buy into all of the applications therein, but I'm sure that I will find many of them useful. But to make, say, the downward block in Naihanchi more closely resemble any specific application might make it less reminiscent of many of the other applications.

The basic movement teaches us certain dynamic principles. The principles, and variations on the movement, can then be applied in many different situations, be they blocking, striking, grappling, choking or some combination of these.

2. There is a tradition in Chinese martial arts of disguising movements in forms so that anyone watching does not understand what's happening. I don't believe that this tradition pervades Okinawan arts to the degree that movements are deliberately altered to disguise their meaning, the abstract nature of the movements ensures this anyway. But to the initiated, the meanings may be clear. As Gichin Funakoshi said 'if you fully understand one kata, then you understand them all'.

3. OK, here's another reason. The kata are only one tool at the practitioner's disposal. They don't include everything that is known about combat. There isn't really much need to include a headbutt in a kata. Everybody should understand the value of such techniques anyway.These 'trimmings' can be added when practicing the applications. Practitioners should understand the 'rules of combat' and apply these when practicing the applications. There, having totally plagarised the work of others, I'll shut up now.

On another point, I've looked at the pictures you put up. I don't recognise them as Naihanchi, but I can see where they are similar in some respects. I presume they're from a version that I'm not at all familiar with. Can you tell me which ryu-ha they come from? I'll try and address each picture in turn as the day goes on.

Mike

 

Thanks for the info

They are Wado Ryu Naihanchi, its the only stuff I could find. I have a lot of respect for Karate as an art and at the tender age of about 8 I got my blue belt in Wado. To be fair I dont remember much of it but the basics are there.

The thing that is getting out of hand in the Kata thread is I am all for all information sources and will gladly steal stuff form as many mediums as I can. However I do feel concearned when I see stuff like these moves and think, hey I could invent instances to say that these moves are usable in this situation. We all could.

However new students and other less experienced martial artistis cling to Kata like this and when a fight comes up they are promptly kicked in. Now I know you have a lot of experience in MA as a whole but my real feeling is in Kata as it is a set of moves it should be a set of moves that have obvious applications, not just one but many.

Now you and I agree on this but to new people it is not as obvious and I feel it should be better to have moves that have credible martial applications that are obvious, drill these and practice them in the kata so muscle memory retention sets in and all that. Then experiment with these MARTIAL moves and add other applications to them.

I would be interested in you explaining uses for these moves - you first then I'll have a go, also if you have any Naihanchi kata pics from your style I would like to see them.

SONSHU

 

Hi Mike,

Okay now I see where you are coming from, thanks. The problem I see with reverse-engineering is that everyone has a different interpretation due to thier training experience. It is hard to know when someone maybe right or way off course.

Bob

 

Hi Bob,

I couldn't agree more. I've seen some outlandish bunkai before now. Mind, I've probably come up with few dodgy ones myself. But I manage to weed those out hopefully. I'm not too bothered whether the bunkai is 'authentic' but rather whether it is practical and workable. Of course, that in itself is something that people can and will disagree on.

Mike

 

They're not from the traditional Wado Naihanchi as I know it. If that's Wado then its undergone some extremely major changes. That said, I don't think much to the hand techniques in the traditional Wado version anyway. They have been considerably stylised for aesthetic purposes in my opinion. Perhaps ironically, I think the Shotokan hand techniques are much closer to one of the 19th century versions. But the Shotokan stance (a deep horse stance) is just silly in my opinion.

Looking at these pictures I can see, I think, where they are related but I don't really want to comment on them as they are major deviations from any way I've seen the kata done. So what I'll do is to take some pictures of the way I do 'the same' moves. I'll also take some pictures of some applications - they say a picture is as good as a thousand words and, to be honest, work is rather busy at the moment so my time to write out applications is rather limited. I probably won't get chance to take any photos til next week, but don't worry, I won't forget.

Just one comment for now though, and that's regarding the stance. Most older versions of Naihanchi use a horse stance that is shoulder width or slightly larger, not the deep horse stance you often seen in the modern versions. I believe this stance is in the kata primarily for training purposes, ie. it is training how to correctly tense the legs. In this sense I believe that Naihanchi and Sanchin are unique. All other kata that I know use a variety of stances that are clearly intended to facilitate the applications. Not so with Naihanchi. One of the most renowned karateka of the early 20th century, Choki Motobu, voiced a similar opinion. He said that for the purposes of application you should think of the attacker coming from 45 degrees on either side, ie. you're turning to face 45 degrees, which turns your square on Naihanchi stance to something more like the 'inner circular' Sanchin stance. So in application, I'm not going to get too stressed out about what exactly the stance is.

Good point. And with more practice it becomes easier to reverse engineer applications. Which is not a bad thing in my opinion. But the kata must work for you, not you working simply to fit the kata. Any applications must pass the test of practicality, realism and simplicity.

I totally agree that many people cling to kata practice without real understanding. The same people often also cling to other unrealistic training practices simply because they are supposedly 'traditional'. Such training often leaves them ill-prepared for real assaultive situations.

I teach kata hand in hand with applications, easy applications first. My students seem to have no difficulty relating the self-defence techniques to the kata. We don't spend much time in class on the kata itself (once they have learned the sequence). I prefer to watch a student's rendition, give them some points to work on, and leave them to do that work at home. If they're too lazy to do that, I'm not really interested in wasting my time doing countless repetitions of the kata in class. During class time the focus is more on partner work, which after all is what its all about. Kata gives them something to work on at home which reinforces what they practice in the dojo.

As I said above, you'll have to bear with me a few days, but I won't forget to do it.

I think its a shame that the subject evokes argument and discord. After all, even if we disagree that isn't a problem to me. I'm convinced of the validity of the approach I follow, but I'm equally certain that it isn't the only valid approach.

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

I do have some concern when I see applications published that are absolute hallucinations. Especially when they are presented as 'fact'.

A few years ago all and sundry were concerned with trying to explain each movement in kata rather than thinking of what is practical and effective.

There remains some useful clues about karate and kata in Itosu's report to the Education Authorities in 1908. He clearly outlines the purpose of early karate and training methods.

Although there have been a number of translations, it is the explanation of the message by someone that understands that period of time that is eye-opening.

Itosu clearly states that there is striking and grappling in kata. He also says that some moves are for training and some are effective techniques, i.e. not every move in a kata is self-defense.

He also talks about the importance of the makiwara but what is not understood is that the makiwara is considered to be a partner. A partner does not have to be a striking board, a human fellow practitioner is included in this.

The opening move of Naihanchi was passed down as a strike/feint to the eyes. If the arm is seized then the elbow strike is applied as an attack to he opponent's elbow as an arm break/arm bar.

If the feint succeeds, instead of an elbow strike, a punch is delivered. The chambering action is a kata symbol for a guard position. In application the performer would stand in a fighting stance with the top hand in front. This same tactic is used in Pinan Yondan and Koshokun.

Thanks Mike,

Bob

 

Mike

A very good post and its nice to see another point on Kata that does not provoke a big arguement.


The thing is I think we can all create versions and applications for a move. However I think for the muscle memory retention lovers of the world, I would rather see a clear cut move being retained than a could be this or this, but it is not either its somewhere in between and hence not really practical.

Like your post Mike - its about the best PRO KATA people one I have read as it does acknowledge the flaws in it and statues the practical uses you and your students have gained from it.

SONSHU

PS-when your pics are up well have a gander over them!

 

Re: Mike

Interesting, because that for me is the real value of kata - muscle memory. The same goes for basics too. Rather than program in a myriad of different techniques there are really only a few different ways of moving the body and limbs. Kata/basics program in a relatively small number of powerful ways of moving. I really do find that the muscle memory I've developed through practice of say, downward block, has really helped with development of all the different techniques that resemble/feel like downward block, regardless of the minor differences that occur in different techniques.

I've found myself in unfamiliar territory so to speak and done something novel (to me) but effective, only to realise that I'd actually done a kata move. So I'd 'invented' a new application without even thinking about it. Some people advocate that this is the way kata should be practiced, ie. without specific applications, simply allowing applications to come out naturally. I don't advocate this myself, but I can see where they are coming from.

How could I have done new applications/techniques and got them right the very first time? Through an understanding of how the human body can be traumatised, but also through knowing how to use my own body to generate power in relevant directions, ie. muscle memory.

Make sense at all?

By the way, if I were to put some video clips on a website, rather than stills on the MAP site, would you be able to view them OK? They'd be mpegs somewhere between ½ a meg and a meg each.

Mike

 

OK, here's some stills and video.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com\mikeflanagan\naihanchi.html

Mike