My thoughts on Judo/Wrestling

With Lad_Gorg's thread locked, nobody else can express their opinion, so I might as well create a new post.

I've done JJJ for 7 months 4 days a week, with a lot of focus in takedowns and ne waza.

I have to point out that I am working out / participate in sports (competitively too, 6 hours of training a day, 6 days a week, flat water kayaking) since I was 14, currently 20, and I have had some minor injuries that healed at a month or two mostly, with proper rest, rehabilitation etc.
I worked around some of them too, not having to stop training 100%.
Also, intensity of the training reached 100% usually, it was not leisure time.

None of these injuries still bug me.

Anyway, in those 7 months of training, my left shoulder has cracked badly, like 5-6 times, each crack a light injury in its own, making the next injury easier.
I remember the first time it happened, it was the second day I trained there, we started on our knees at a "really relaxed" rolling and the other guy, a former judoka blackbelt and champion rushed at me, I didn't have time to do anything, my left arm violently moved some degrees behind my torso, crack.

At that period, I was really amped with JJJ and MA generally, but this injury was keeping me back so I was attending class twice a week to let it heal -that was pretty stupid, I should stop going completely until it healed 100%-.

Second time, during ne waza, the other guy pulled an Americana lock pretty fast, crack.
Third and fourth time, getting a kick on my lead hand (while avoiding the kick) by someone stronger/bigger ( one of those kicks was from a 2.0 m 110 kg guy, I'm 80 kg and 25cm shorter ).
I might be missing some more times too.
Anyway, every time I had to let my shoulder heal and be extremely careful at takedowns etc.

Add to that thumb injuries from standup striking with karate gloves (not something serious, my thumbs were too "sore", I think most of you get the feeling) and the occasional kick to the enemy's elbow, when he defended successfully, which led to swelling of my foot ( we didn't kick with the shins ), I started to think, "Is it worth it?".

The worst injury was during a takedown, the enemy (a former greco-roman wrestling champion) dropped me and I fell on my shoulder. Next day, my left ACL joint was swollen and 2 times bigger than the right one.

This in the only injury so far in my life that bugs me 6 months after, and I've done many stupid things with weights(bad form, no warm up, no cooldown, too much weight for my strength at that moment) and cardio (too much running, sprinting without previous warmup, no mobility work), which resulted in some minor injuries, and those rarely.

I have to point out that I'm not disappointed with the risk ratio of standup striking nor with groundwork, but with takedowns.

To sum up my thoughts:

• We did extensive training in breakfalling,randori,etc, but sparring, even though restricted, was pretty hard. Actually, I don't think that you can go easy on takedowns, you can either drop a resisting opponent (who does NOT want to get dropped) or not. It's not like striking, you can't easily modify your power output. So, occasionally, no matter how much you train your breakfalls and your technique, you fail to fall properly and an injury is welcome. This goes to holyheadjch mostly, before he says I didn't train properly and blah blah blah.
  
• I came to the personal conclusion that combat sports which include a lot of hard takedowns -like JJJ/wrestling and maybe BJJ- actually have many more injuries, usually serious, even if you don't want to go at 100% power or compete, than striking combat sports, which, if done at a non-competitive more relaxed fashion, don't have many injuries actually.
  On the topic of brain injury, if you don't want to risk it, just spar really light in a controlled fashion and stop sparring with idiots who think they are Rocky Balboa. Also, check your ego too.
  
• As I said before, I am not disappointed with the minor injuries from striking, because they heal rather quickly and they DO heal. It is pretty much known, that more severe joint / bone / ligament injuries (like Lad_Gorg's injuries, my ACL injury and many more injuries from takedowns which happen daily) most times leave something behind. And, to be honest, I don't want to get beat up at 20 years old after 4 years of successful competition in other sports with no serious injuries, I'd rather be healthy and able to workout at 50 years old than be really good at takedowns. Just my point of view, of course.

Closing the thread, right now, when I resume my MA training, I'm pretty sure that I will choose a striking only MA.
Of course, to be honest, in terms of sparring, I will go light usually and rarely medium, no point for hard sparring if you don't care about competition in my opinion.
I prefer bruises and a swollen (for 2-3 days) foot or shin, than a shoulder/ankle/knee or even a spine/neck injury which will follow me until I die.

 

I would like to say something about the throwing art in general. IMO, the throwing art will have the following advantages over the striking art.

- Your grappling skill will be with you through your old age when you may lose your speed, power, endurance, or flexibility for your striking art.
- There will always be a lucky punch. There will never be a lucky take down. If you are better than your opponent in the throwing skill, there is no way that your opponent can take you down by luck. This may not apply to the striking art. Old saying said, a 20 years old boxer can kill a 80 years old MA master with punch.
- There is no way that your training partner will allow you to knock him out daily. Your training partner won't mind to let you to throw him over your head daily.
- When you have thrown your opponent over your head, you will smile in your dream for many nights. You may not be able to get that kind of fun from your striking art unless your opponent let you to "knock him out".
- The anti-grappling is impossible but the anti-striking is very possible.

So if you plan to train the grappling art, don't be afraid to take the risk because the reward will be great.

 

As someone who stays away from osoto gari (but loves scissors) the only significant injury I've sustained is from being stubborn on a leglock.

Honestly the only takedown injuries I've seen have been from guard jumps, osoto gari, and people posting with their hands when they shouldn't. (either on the jacket or the mat)
Most takedowns pretty much require the person being thrown to do something stupid to injure themselves... Sometimes (people turning toward the thrower as he enters for osoto gari, for example) the common escapes carry some significant risk and sometimes the ruleset encourages dangerous breakfalling.

 

I would second an earlier sentiment. Pulling your opponent to the ground with you on a throw can result in an injury for you pretty fast. In nearly 20 years of martial arts and contact sports i haven't received a major injury (knock on wood) but I have riding horses. Does that make horse back riding more dangerous than either of those?

 

Harry paralyzed me down one side of my body for about a minute and a half last week - does that count?

 

This happened to me when I was young. Onetime I accidentally pulled my opponent down with me. He dropped his elbow straight on top of my heart area. I got back up, suddenly everything in front of my eyes turned to dark. I felt back down again. I almost died that day.

 

As far as safety is concerned I'd be much more comfortable with judo than boxing. The number of boxers who end up with brain damage is just staggering, I'd much rather break a wrist than end up with permenant brain damage.

 

I agree with your concern, but I really don't think that a boxing class of 1 hour 3-4 days a week, with most of this time being conditioning/pad work/drills etc, and maybe 5-10 mins of controlled light-medium sparring under supervision of a coach will lead to noticable brain damage.

Actually, one is able to not spar after all, I know this means a much worse development in terms of MA skills, but if someone cares about their brain so much, they have this choice.

Well, this encourages me more to say that throwing arts are much more dangerous to be honest.
Good that nothing happened after all!

I think yes!

No, this comparison is not valid.
Also, saying "I didn't receive an injury" is nice, I'm happy for you, pretty nice that you're doing MA for 20 years and you're fine.
BUT, there are thousands of people out there who have been doing a throwing art and got themselves beat up, a google search about wrestling injuries, judo injuries and sometimes bjj injuries will show this easily.

Even staying away from particular techniques means that there is a big risk of injury with those, you know about it and you are pretty much afraid to take it (good for you).
Also, if the escapes carry a significant risk and the ruleset encourages dangerous breakfalling, we're talking about a dangerous high risk enviroment,right?

I think we're on the same side here!

Nice review, thanks!

 

Anyone else to give his two cents?

I know this topic is pretty much the same with Lad_Gorg's one, but I'd like some more thoughts / opinions.

 

Mate, it don't work like that. You can't custom order your training, especially in boxing and MT.

I know I've come across posts suggesting this - but I just can't see someone able to have that much control of their training in real life - with the possible exception of someone like SIB who does private sessions one on one with his instructor - exclusively.

You go to a real boxing club and tell your instructor ( whose time and attention are being competed for by a number of guys n gals looking to him to help set up their first fights in the regionals ) that you want your steak medium-rare, juicy but only a slight-pink in the centre, he will either tell you where the nearest boxercise class is or will put you in front of one of the heavy-bags in a corner and there you will remain as he's long forgotten about you.

TBH, I've only had training at one school and thusly limits my perspective on this.

 

Between the two threads all that can be usefully said has really been said. Martial arts in general are dangerous, especially one with a heavy competition base like judo. But if you compare the types of injuries generally sustained during judo they're child's play compared to what you see looking at an old boxer (check out some video of modern Muhammad Ali)

 

I'm not poo-pooing pugilistic dementia by any means - its no joke; however, a significant portion of the population (non MAs, non-sporting, non-contact)could be considered medically brain-damaged.

Brain damaged due to cholesterols of the same type that clog arteries of the cardio-vascular system ( I'd love to see a long-term, double-blind study of people who consume McDonalds hamburgers and French fries several times a week against people who spent a few years on the amateur boxing circuit )

Brain damaged due to alcohol consumption ( apparently it doesn't take that much if one is long term )

Brain damaged to inherited conditions and predispositions of genetics.

Brain damaged due to environmental/chemical toxins that one may be unknowingly exposed to over time.

Brain damage from other sports - I know for a fact that the local ( in the States ) high school football team - which is a feeder for a number of competitive college teams - has several concussions a month during season and there has been at least one, possibly two fatalities over the last few years during summer training ( both heart-related ) That's not counting some very nasty injuries from the girls cheerleading squad - who fall from relatively great heights in their formations.

Brain damage resulting from complications of other medical maladies.

You're in the medical field, IIRC, so you probably know all this and more

Edit: Left out probably number one: Brain damage due to accidents of all manner and description.

 

Check out the documentary Super size me

Baza

 

I know about it, roughly. Not seen it but I can imagine its not too pretty.

 

It's worth the watch and a real eye opener.

Bzaa

 

In folkstyle wrestling throws aren't used that much, you usually shoot to do a takedown. Also, folkstyle has rules that you need to control your opponent the whole way to the mat. Slamming your opponent to the mat is not allowed and could get you disqualified. Also, a lot of throws in folkstyle you drop to your knees to complete the throw so you can get control on the mat to get your points.

From my experience most injuries are either accidents like a poke in the eye or to the knee when someone does a shot and catches the other players knee wrong or from the side. Slamming your opponent to the mat is not allowed and could get you disqualified.

If you look at MMA shots are way more prevalent than throws, but that could be due to the large pool of folkstyle wrestlers.

 

I will. I'll set Belltoller Junior #2 in front as well. After two + years living in Asia, he would only eat fruit, bok choy, hated sugar/candy and was very trim.

After discovering hamburgers and milkshakes he ballooned to huskies - despite a heavy boxing and team sports schedule.

Its a fight to keep him from nicking burgers whenever he has opportunity. I've been sussing there's more to burgers than meat and bread for a while.

 

I know the enemy you fight mate. Trying to teach my kids the value of healthy eating having only recently discovered it myself.

Baza

 

i've mentioned this before in regards to bjj with PASmith.
usually you can talk to whoever your sparring with and talk to them about what you would like to work on.
with beginners classes - all out sparring rarely happens, its usually resisted drills and positional rolling.

if you cant limit intensity, limit the amount of time you actually spar. spar once a week. if you talk to your instructor about any health problems you have and he doesnt think your health is important then is that class really right for you?

 

At my old BJJ place you could always sit out on some sparring or have a "rest" if someone available wasn't someone you wanted to roll with.
It was probably looked down on (not in a bad judgemental way) and of course meant you probably didn't progress as well others that sparred more but there was definitely a vibe where how much you did was up to you.
And seeing as most classes went 2+ hours (it was that kind of gym) sitting out for some of it was pretty much necessary.
Have a couple of rolls, sit out for a bit, chew the fat, hop in for a couple more, rest a bit, get changed and go home.