My PCL injury?

Discussion in 'Injuries and Prevention' started by Tian-Tian, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Well! So last Friday (7/15/11) I got a work injury that hurt my knee.

    Went to hospital first (since WorkMed was closed by the time I got off my shift). The ER doctor suggested an MRI to rule out ligament damage; he sent me home with an ice pack, an ace bandage and some Midol.

    Got my follow-up with WorkMed this morning... the results were inconclusive.

    I stated my symptoms as follows:
    • Knee giving way backwards on occasion as I walk
    • Pain in front of and behind the knee
    • General tenderness
    • Spasms in my upper calf
    • Spasms in my shin
    • Sharp, stabbing pain once in a while, otherwise dull and constant

    He did a knee physical (and accidentally popped my hip in the process?? Is that normal??).
    My knee/ankle was making some obnoxious snapping sounds while I hauled myself up onto the exam table. :eek: And he DID hear it.

    In terms of lateral movement, I'm perfectly fine. This is very good, methinks. The doctor mentioned that he's concerned about the condition of my PCL, especially since it's giving backwards. He said little about my ACL; when I put my hand on my kneecap and move my leg forward and back, I can feel it grinding/clicking. So I dunno.

    I've got a physical therapy appointment this Wednesday morning to do some further examination. I'm also going to be given some exercises to do for recovery. The doctor said he wasn't going to do an MRI simply because he didn't want to schedule me for such an expensive procedure unless he absolutely was SURE he needed to (especially since, you know, this was an on-the-job injury).

    Until I get the all-clear from the doctor, I've got to wear my nifty new knee brace as needed (they found one to fit my upper thigh, haha), NO squatting, NO ladders or step-stools, NO heavy lifting... which meant I was pretty much useless at work today other than run cashier for 6 hours straight. In addition, I have to clock out and sit down for ten minutes every two hours. :( I was pretty frustrated.

    About the brace: the doctor was like, "well, you have a, um, very large thigh."
    I replied with a laugh, "I know."
    "We'll go see what we can find for you."
    "You treat Polynesians and Samoans here, right?"
    "... once in a while!" :D

    And of course, it took two fittings to get it right, but I've got a brace and it fits quite well (though the fitter called my legs, "runner-back legs"... you know, small calves, huge thigh. :rolleyes:).

    So.... we'll see what happens!! Thoughts? Conclusions? Concerns? And what on earth with my hip popping??
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  2. righty

    righty Valued Member

    I would say wait until you see the PT to get a better or proper diagnosis.

    Unfortunately doing an MRI at this stage may not give you any better idea as swelling present at this stage and possibly for weeks or even months from now can obscure the injury from the images.

    It sounds like your work isn't so bad about working around your injury, which is good news. Just be aware and be prepared to stand up for your wellbeing in case they try to screw you over.

    What sort of brace have you got?
     
  3. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Hey thanks for the reply, righty! :D It's good to see you!

    It's an Neoprene Velcro Side Closure Knee Brace - Open Patella. Nothing fancy; just something to get around on.

    Well.... I could tell my boss was a bit frustrated but what can I do? :(

    Visually it doesn't look nearly as swollen as the day of injury (I've been pretty religious about R.I.C.E., which has helped dramatically). However it still feels swollen... does that make sense? Also, my right knee feels stressed from the extra weight it's been having to bear so.... hopefully that clears up once I equalize my weight to the other knee again. Not sure how long it'll take. Should I brace my other knee or just ask at the PT appointment?

    Also, should I sleep in this brace? Or just leave it off unless I need to walk around?
     
  4. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Keep in mind I am not a medical professional or resemble one so take this all in perspective.

    It's understandable your boss is frustrated, because you can't do as much. But he doesn't really have a choice considering it's a work injury. I would still keep up dialogue with him though because he can help you. For example if you are on registers for long period you might be able to get a chair.

    Soft tissue injuries can remain swollen internally for a while, which explains my earlier comment regarding MRIs. This is even if there is no external visible swelling.

    Realistically that sort of brace doesn't do much at all. It's mostly acting as a reminder for you (and to others sometimes) to be careful about the knee rather than provide actual support. So if you are past the RICE stage (~72 hours) I don't think you should need to wear it while sleeping.

    You shouldn't have to put a brace on the other knee but ask your PT. Try not to overstress the uninjured knee so much but this is something only you can judge at the moment as it depend on how much difficulty you can with the injured one.
     
  5. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    TBH from what you said I would be surprised if you had a PCL injury. They aren't that common and usually are from a much greater trauma (I could be wrong though :mad: )

    One thing, the shin going back is commonly seen in people who have an ACL injury and the test is done incorrectly. If the ACL comes forward too much when setting up the PCL test then it will appear that the PCL is going back excessively. ACL injuries are much more common. Still I would have to say that at your age it would be unusual for such an incident to do much to your major knee ligaments.

    Lastly, the incident that you mention does not sound bad enough to do much to either ligament although you could have a general knee sprain all the same.

    Best to do the RICE bit, slow down your activity and see what the PT says on wed. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

    FWIW

    LFD
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  6. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Hmm! Thanks for y'all's advice. :) I guess I'll jut have to wait.

    I ended up not sleeping with it; woke up with my legs all kicked around, though! :D Gotta learn to lay still!

    I did a bit of walking around (from bedroom to kitchen and back) last night without the brace on; I could feel some definitive clicking around my kneecap as I put weight on and off. Could this be a clue to my diagnosis?
     
  7. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Midol? For knee pain?
     
  8. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    It would not be unreasonable to think that you hurt your patella considering that it is more in the proximity of where the box was landing ;' ).

    Clicking is not that uncommon and is often present after an injury is recovered. Not always a sign of anything other than you have some reflex muscle inhibition and things are getting pulled about in directions that they don't usually go in.

    Don't want to try and do a Dx over a forum LOL! See what the PT's say tomorrow and hopefully it will give you a starting point.

    Don't assume anything for the moment :' )

    FWIW

    LFD
     
  9. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Also, I hate spiders for this reason.

    I asked the same thing. :D

    EDIT: In retrospect, maybe it was Motrin. They fall in the same category in my brain for whatever reason.
    --
    So to add insult to injury, while lying on my bed with my knee propped up I got bit on THE FACE by a <insert your adjective/explicative of your choice here> SPIDER.

    I got bit on the face by a spider.
    Immediately and uncontrollably, I couldn't breathe and it was ASTHMA ARMAGEDDON. Nasal passageway shut down, lungs shut down, eyes swollen shut and BURNING the flame of 1000 suns. I became light-sensitive and couldn't see. And again, lungs were out of commission and I seriously thought I was going to die or pass out.

    Honey and vinegar and anise tea to the rescue, followed with copious amounts of albuterol and some faith (and Zyrtec, too). I made a really miraculous recovery, considering my allergic reaction. Took some ibuprofen, iced both of my legs (because they were BOTH hurting thanks to that spider bite), and took a few more allergy meds to ensure that I didn't die or go into shock or something.

    As of right now I've slept for 5 hours straight in the middle of the day, my eyes are still very much blood-shot and swollen (but I can see at least) and I'm still dealing with opening up my nasal passageways/keeping lungs under control. EDIT#2: Here's what the bite looks like (don't mind my eye):

    [​IMG]

    I don't know what species of spider bit me, but I know it was a spider; my Dad said he had squished a few of them in there earlier today while cleaning (we're still moving into the condo). My mattress is still on the floor; can't wait to get my bed frame in. At the moment the bite looks like a harmless mosquito bite; hopefully it doesn't blister.

    And on top of this whole ordeal, I've got to go close at work tomorrow after my PT appointment. Boo.

    So let it be known that my arachnophobia is FETCHING JUSTIFIED and if I so EVER have one cross my path it will surely die a quick, shoe-induced death (or death by Windex).

    I know spiders are great for the environment and all... but seriously, this is no bueno.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  10. Seventh

    Seventh Super Sexy Sushi Time

    Hope you feel better soon!!
     
  11. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Thank you; thank you. My eyes are still very swollen and puffy and my nose cannot stop running. I have a slight wheeze, but it's better, so long as I don't agitate my lungs much. :( I'm simply not comfortable.

    I may stop by a doctor later today; this just doesn't seem like an ordinary bite. My face keeps itching randomly and the bite is really tender to the touch. I simply cannot sleep.

    Will be very fun to watch me flounder at my PT appointment in a few hours on 4 hours of sleep.

    The knee is holding steady; I don't feel it buckling nearly as much as earlier. Which is, you know, good. :) Still a bit tender, but we'll see what the final verdict is.
     
  12. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Baaaack from PT! Tired as all-get-out (but that may be due to me being up since 4am).

    So the doctor looked my knee over, reviewed for the millionth time about what happened, poked around a bit and found some pretty tender spots.... told me there is no way in heck I could have damaged my PCL. More likely is a meniscus tear and/or ACL damage. It's hard to tell at this point since it's swollen internally. I'll be sore for about a week or so more.

    So PT treatment was heat, leg lifts for exercise, light no-resistance biking and then ICE.

    While biking, definitely had some popping in the knee upon extension; I can do full rotations on the bike at least, which is a very good sign (or so I was told).

    Uhh.... restrictions are the same as far as what I can/can't do at work goes. I get to do leg lifts at home and lots of ice.

    So that's it. I'm supposed to make an appointment for more PT this Friday, then follow-up with the doc on Monday.
    Spider bite effects are still rampant, but at least I can breathe out of one nostril and my eyes aren't nearly so puffy. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    if i can give you some advice.....i tore my acl and meniscus...maybe i missed this in your earlier posts, but you mention you went to the emergency room.

    GO TO A SPECIALIST IMMEDIATELY! a specialist will be able to tell you what is going on in most cases without an mri. an acl/pcl/mcl injury can be easily assessed regardless of swelling in about 2 seconds by a specialist.

    i did the same thing as you. hurt my knee, went to the emergency room, told there was too much swelling, xrays proved no broken bones, given pt, told to put ice on it. 10 years later when my knee's giving out, i go to a specialist, who in about 2 seconds told me i have a torn acl. up until i started suffering from bone spurs, everything worked fine; i played ice hockey, did hapkido, played soccer. i also have bone spurs on the back of my good knee's kneecap because of the extra stress of dealing with a torn acl on one knee.

    don't waste your time. you need an answer, not pt, not ice, not motrin. go see an orthopedic surgeon immediately. if everything looks ok structurally, then pt, ice, motrin, etc.

    edit....sorry, i'm not trying to freak you out. but you should see a specialist. not your general practitioner, not some generic "doctor" at your hmo or whatever, and definitely not some workmed doctor who's only looking at the bottom line. find out who does orthopedic work and make an appointment with that person. get your work to pay for it because the injury happened on the job. doctor's can't possibly know everything in every field. go to the person who specializes in what your problem is.

    if you don't see a specialist, you're going to get the run-around of pt, ice, motrin over and over. see the specialist, find out what your problem is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
  14. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Admittedly, I was a little freaked out until I read your edit. :D

    Thank you for your advice and words of warning; I actually planned to see an ortho surgeon asap (once I get the all-clear from the PT and the doctor at workmed, that is. This whole getting-hurt-on-the-job-and-dealing-with-work-insurance is stressful as it is without compounding things).

    Since my previous ankle injury and all, it still hasn't stopped snapping/hurting, etc. I figure with a bum knee on top of it I might as well go have a specialist look at both areas. :hat:
     
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    you're going to have to put stress on them by calling them constantly, writing letters, threatening (yes, threatening) them, and questioning everything workmed is telling you. i went through the workmed site. i don't possibly see how anyone there can give you an accurate diagnosis. just the little bit you've mentioned, doesn't sound like they know what they're talking about. take matters into your own hands.
     
  16. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Hmm... well today was ONLY the first day of PT; perhaps another session or so will tell me the best path to choose. :)
     
  17. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    you can do pt until your thigh bulges like arnold schwarzenegger. won't heal a torn ligament.

    if you don't get diagnosed correctly now, the workmed "doctors" will just kick the can down the road until workmed or your employer don't feel responsible anymore. then, try to get money out of them years later. get correctly diagnosed now, and you can take steps to have whatever surgery you need to heal your issue, and to have them pay.

    i'm going to stay on you. don't trust your employer or workmed "doctors" to do the right thing. you have to take matters into your own hands. workmed and your employer want to do as little as possible.
     
  18. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    The difficulty with the whole process is they don't do anything with a partial tear most of the time. Heck half the All Blacks have had torn ACL's and function just fine.

    The only truly accurate dx is going to be via a scope and they won't do that until your leg is mega strong because lots of things go away/stop being sensitive once your strength is improved.

    Surgery has its own problems and people now like to steer clear of them if at all possible unless you have a clear and obvious rupture (or at least a very significant tear).

    Do check out all things but don't assume that what is being given is automatically a short change. I see tons of ACL's and many do very well without Sx.

    Oh and it is the hamstrings etc and not the quads that are the important things in protecting your knee when you have had an ACL tear.

    ;' )

    FWIW

    LFD
     
  19. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Thanks, y'all. I'll be keeping eye on things for sure. :)

    Also, I'm finally getting out of my terrible spider bite reaction phase and the bite is NOT blistering; instant win! :D
     
  20. Tian-Tian

    Tian-Tian Awesome 15 minutes a day.

    Completely just gonna comment again on my own thread because I'm trying to avoid doing dishes again.

    So I was walking around the house a bit without my brace on and felt some definite stinging along the MCL/close to ACL. This is after I iced it. I'm guessing this means something is still incredibly amiss somewhere in there.
     

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