So, in the WKSA there is one straight sword, one inverted sword, one double short sword, one cutting form, one double long sword form, one spear form, etc. and it seems to have stayed that way with most Kuk Sool styles. I finally found videos of the forms I was taught at colorbelt/black belt level. These forms are from the Muye Dobo Tongji. There is also a open hand form as well. I decided to make a new thread regarding these forms instead of putting them on the "Ki Cho Hyung - Woohn Ohk Hyung" thread. In my opinion, anyone doing Kuk Sool or Korean National Arts should teach/practice these forms since these are Korean National Art forms, are they not? So, why are they not taught? We all know that after Woohn Ohk Hyung, the WKSA syllabus (and most off shoot styles) are dried up and there is next to nothing left to learn. Why are these forms not taught? Enjoy the videos. By the way, I'm not uploading ALL of them, but you can find all these videos on youtube. They are usually right next to the video on the play list. All the videos have the same man in it. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvbkuXtY_Pk"]YouTube- Korean Martial Art Sword Form - SSangSuDo[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFQl0vjBrWE"]YouTube- Korean Martial Art Sword Form - YeDo ISibSaSe(24 forms)[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3uaHI0LJd8"]YouTube- Korean Martial Art Sword Form - JeDogGeom[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMfdpQHdL0E"]YouTube- Korean Martial Art Sword Form - OaeGeom - CHeonYuRyu[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai7_uG5hmeM"]YouTube- Korean Martial Art Sword Form - BonGugGeom & YeDoCHongBo[/ame]
Just some fun knowledge: 왜검 WaeKeum 倭劔 (variants: 剣 剱 劍 剑 劎) WaeKeum literally means "dwarf sword" and is the term used in MYDBTJ for "japanese sword". This is because the oldest recorded name for what is today Japan was set down in chinese documents recorded as the land of "dwarfs". This term was used for almost 1000 years until Japan changed the name. (Wō in chinese; Wae in korean, Wo in japanese)
I risk sounding like a broken record....but it is worth sounding like a broken record if I can get at least a FEW people to realize what they are dealing with when they investigate these older traditions. First off...... what idiot decided that all of these forms are to be executed with a two-handed sabre? The various methods provided in the MYSB and later in the MYTBTJ each were intended for a different architecture of sword. Now....let me stop right here and ask: what part of what I just said is not understood and how come the Koreans are not moving in the direction of clarifying this themselves. Secondly....will somebody PULL-LEASE stop waving the sword around like its a band-leader's baton. Sheesh. Those movements are really intended to accomplish a goal and if a person is going to wave a sword around like its a cheerleader's pom-pom its no wonder that noone takes these practices seriously. As a person learns each individual method they should be training to perform that method while cutting a target. Otherwise you are just kidding yourself and add to the huge pile of theatrics which are today's KMA. Third..... someone need to wake-up and understand that the material of the KSW is a sorry mimic of what the original material might have been. Part of this is because I don't find anywhere that Korean masters actually studied KOREAN SIB PAL KI. Now if I am wrong about this somebody please let me know. But unless people realize that the SIP PAL KI referred to in most comments about KSW is NOT the same thing as studying that cohesive material put forward by Prince Sado, these discussions are just going to keep going in circles. Now sometime back I asked what would happen if a person wanted to join the WKSA but wanted to invest themselves in really studying traditional Korean practices and not just some stuff somebody whipped together to make a name for themselves. I was pretty much told to forget about it. Now I see people asking questions about why this stuff is not being stressed in the KSW. I find the irony mind-blowing. Best Wishes, Bruce
There is stuff to learn after Woon Ohk Hyung. WKSA is not the original Kuk Sool. But even if there wasn't, it wouldn't matter. By the time you're 5th-6th dan, you ought to be beyond forms. What is the purpose of a form, anyway? To help you know your body and how it moves. At 20+ years in, there's no need for more choreography, and memorizing a new pattern won't help you get better - at that point, you had better start trying to BE the martial art. How many forms does Yang Style Taichi have? A long and a short. You do the same form your whole life, and you still learn more from it, because again, a good form is about knowing yourself. I'm 5th dahn now and my master is showing me more forms. Great. I memorized them. They aren't going to make any more difference in my skill than my old forms, though. And honestly, good luck matching any form to the MYDBTJ. The pictures are just way too crummy, and in any given sequence in that book, half the pictures just repeat. That doesn't leave you with much of a guide.
playing the devil's advocate here, but how much information is necessary to learn how to swing a sword or do a stance? who needs 10 sword forms or even 10 open hand forms? as long as they accomplish their goal of easing a student into comprehensive knowledge of the subject? looking at the 3 sam bang cho's and oon hak hyeong (as soon as my older brother promotes we will see oon bi!) there is a logical progression in difficulty... if oon bi hyeong is what little i saw of it, there is little room for more open handed info. as it is, there is plenty of information for 20+ years of study at 2 hours a day, 3 days a week. unless there is a way to add some of those missing steps and cuts into a form, i see little NEED for there to be any more than one more sword form out of that particular set of videos.
Like I said in various other posts, Kuk Sool forms after black belt are traditional and real, just not as well known as other forms. If you don't like it, I honestly don't care. They were recorded in history and you can trace exactly where they came from. I even posted the information WHERE each form was discovered which seemed to conveniently be over looked by anti-Kuk Soolers. With that being said.... The purpose of a form is to denote a new skill or mind set. Each form has its own principle and its purpose. For example, learning Guhm Moo Hyung is important in Kuk Sool because we like to have fast hands to freak out an opponent. Kyuk Pah Hyung is important so we learn how to jump high and develop awsome leg power for stronger breaking techniques. Woohn Ohk Hyung is important to learn the animal fighting styles and to develop a higher level of coordination, balance, and external strength as well as internal strength. Forms are important. That is why we are a TRADITIONAL martial art. If forms weren't important in TKMA, then we'd just be another MMA system teaching how to punch and kick. We ARE the fight. We ARE the martial art. Sounds like the same thing to me. Everything has a purpose. I find it funny that the question I asked hasnt' yet been answered: why are these forms not taught? They are an integral part of the "Korean National Arts" i.e. Kuk Sool. So, that being said, these forms should be added on to what we already have. I teach these forms and with the proper weapons I might add; which Bruce I have to admit, ****es me off when I see some people use the wrong equipment. Thats like using two Wakazashi's for our double short sword form. But, like I said, MOST Kuk Sool systems dry up after 5th dahn; not ALL Master Dunchok, just most. The real Kuk Sool is still out there, waiting to be claimed. Some of us have done the work and gathered all the material and put it in its original place on the syllabus. Others break off, reinvent the WKSA or continue to teach the current syllabus. Good for them. And I'd really love to see Master Yangs version of Woon Bae Hyung. Will your brother be making a video of this form? I'd love to see how it compares to mine.
GM Suh does not allow his Masters to teach beyond the "set" curriculum...FWIK. I have seen my teacher do more than 10 different straight carry sword forms.
My point was that in terms of increasing skill, learning a new form once you're at 5th or 6th dan is not going to improve anything for you other than to broaden your catalogue of memorabilia. You ought to be at the limits of physicality at that point, and you're probably starting to age. There's no more speed, technique, or power to gain. Therefore, new forms don't really show you new motions. Your body should be capable of all motions already, intuitively. Sure, there are other forms. I know several sword forms, and it's nice that the Kuk Sool Kwan I learned has several of each. But it's not important. Martial self cultivation goes so far beyond simple movement for movement's sake. After 5th dahn, you'd better get an improved grasp of um and yang and ultimately, ki. It's the only study that will allow you to continue to improve into old age. Forms are just that, form. Eventually it's time to let go of form and have no form. BTW, I picked up two wakizashis for the moo gum moo hyung we do, and had my 1st dan student use them when she performs it. It doesn't matter one bit. A sword is a sword, and she's learning how the body interacts with bladed extensions of the arm. Martial arts can serve as historical reenactment or they can serve as means of self cultivation. We preserve history, and it's important to me not to live with false history, but I believe martial arts is a transcendent form of self study, and I must admit, it gets less and less important to me how "Korean" day to day practice is.
if i do film it, it would be a segment, and i would put a newspaper in front of my camera for future fact checking. don't want anybody learning from a video and claiming IHS taught them.
You really....really..... need to understand what you are dealing with in these books. NOONE is going to learn, say, BON KUK GEOM BEOP by looking at the pictures and threading them together to form a HYUNG. There was a manual published by the Qi family from China that attempted to do the same thing with the Boxing Canon from the JIN XIAO SHIN SHU and the result was a complete joke!! Please.....please remember that the pictures only represent the most salient posture of a given method. For instance, the picture of KUMKYE DOKLIPSE (lit: single leg standing posture) is not just a matter of standing on one leg and holding the sword like a baseball bat. There is a series of biomechanics leading up to that position and executed AFTER the position. In this case KUMKYE DOKLIPSE is not just a static picture but a method for using the sword with a number of interpretations. Now, if you understand that the picture represents a number of interpretations you begin to breath life into what you are doing. Lets look at a few. a.) From a neutral stance withdraw the front foot up and back to evade a strike at the lower leg by a pole arm. The sword is in a high guard position, in case the polearm attack is a feint intend to snare the weapon. b.) From a neutral position withdraw the front foot up and back. This stores kinetic energy in the body prepatory to an explosive attack in which the entire body is placed behid the cut. c.) Each of a & b can be used separately, be used in combination with each other or can be used in combination with other sword methods. Lets do this again with the first sword method......the single most common one taught. "Advance and encounter the thief" is not a static front stance with the sword held high. The method teaches stepping forward while executing a cut or thrust. It is a foundation movement of all swordsmanship....and it is NOT a static picture on a page. "Advance and kill the thief" is almost identical except that THIS method is a matter of executing a cut or thrust using a substitution step. European fencers use this movement all the time to advance quickly with balance. Just these two methods alone could keep a person busy for a couple of years of fencing and target cutting. Now I am going to stop here because I have shared information like this before and I have begun to feel as though when I write like this I am just wasting my time. Somehow I get the impression that people are looking for shortcuts that will let them execute moves so as to suggest that they know more than they do without deeply committing themselves to actually LEARNING this stuff. You have to actually STUDY and LEARN this stuff. You can't just look at pictures and mimic what you THINK is going on. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Yes....and herein lies the heart and the soul of every crappy thing to ever come out of the modern world of KMA. It would be interesting to know what power bestowed by the Deity authorizes any teacher to limit the growth of a student. My whole career has been dedicated to fostering growth in students----as THEY define it....not ME----and I would have quit YESTERDAY if my role had included telling students HOW they should grow, in what direction they should grow, how far they should grow and at what rate. As far as I am concerned---and in my personal opinion---- I believe a teacher stops being a teacher and becomes a dictator when he places strictures on the nature of a student's growth. And...in case people have NOT been keeping up on current events, the nature and quality of Korean and Japanese martial traditions is degrading as more people step away from martial practice and leave its execution to mere time-structuring for little kids. I think adults have grown weary of the bickering, politics and in-fighting and I , for one, can't blame them one bit! FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Yeah, I get that they're excerpts or "frames" if you will. They are just extremely poorly drawn, and as you said, open to a "number" of interpretations. And thus are there numerous "versions" of forms supposedly from MYDBTJ. To which point, the book hasn't helped those practicioners a bit, and it makes no difference that they used it as an aid to their study. If described sword attacks are indeed universal and there is no "prototype hyung" that the book is trying to describe, how much more so does this become the case. P.S. Also, the book does repeat the same image again and again. That doesn't help your case.
From what I have seen, Bon Kuk Gum Hyung has been demonstrated a dozen different ways. People in armor, people in TKD uniforms, people in street clothes, etc. The open hand fighting forms as well; each done different. Apparently, MasterDunchok's school does the Jang Gun Hyung different from the MuyeDoboTongji Kumdo Association (from his own admission here on MAP). Why? Easy; we all add our own flairs. NO ONE can say they do it perfect because there is no such thing as perfect. I tell my students "This is the way I do it; you might wind up doing it a little different, and thats okay. Follow this pattern." When it comes to forms, sorry, but I have to disagree. Turning into Bruce Lee and saying "find the way of no way" doesn't really mean much. You should be fluid and continue to move naturally, but if, let's say a new form teaches you groin kicks and body shots and the body mechanics behind it, your saying that this form wouldn't help you in anyway? This form is "just a form"? I dont' believe that. My body shot technique could use work, and by praciticing this form, it helps me learn the technique behind it. No, doing the form in a fight WILL NOT help me, but knowthing the Bup, or Principle, behind it well help in the long run. If you start slowing down at Master Level, then thats your fault. The closer I get to Master Level the faster I feel I'm going. Each form shows something new and helps me more and more each day. Bruce, I ask you once again to PLEASE make a video of these forms; you seem to know what your talking about and I think this could help everyone that studies the MYDBTJ.
Do you also practice the forms shown in Robert Young's tapes? http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=8160319 http://web.archive.org/web/20031203225959/www.concentric.net/~sdseong/kmar.vid.sw.htm
I'm really hard-pressed to explain things any more clearly than I have---here or other places. It is NOT the pictures. People seem really hung-up on the picture. It does not matter if the pictures repeat, are out of order, do not relate to the text or are attributable to beings from another world. From this point one might as well be discussing the nature of the paper, ink and binding. The assitance that the MYSB and MYTBTJ offer is an encapsulation of what a person needs to know to have a decent founding in a series of methods. A person who wants to investigate the MYSB, the MYTBTJ or SIB PAL KI is STILL going to learn the various methods, practice the various methods and make those methods an integral part of their own art. Some areas of the MYTBTJ are completely f*****-up and the KWON BEOP chapter is one such case. Not only were all 32 Boxing Methods of the JIN XIAO SHIN SHU not used, but the few that were used were reshuffled and finally paired so that two people encountering each other would simply "stalemate" each other's efforts. A person wanting to make a living practice of that material is going to need to appreciate the nature of, say, "seven star boxing", the use of the "grappling method", the method of "Six closed and four open" and so forth. The question is whether people will actually make this sort of investment on their own or if they are going to putter around the edges waiting for someone to spoon-feed them the answers. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
No, I am not talking about Bruce Lee. The man was young when he died anyway. You're telling me you're not at a point where you look at forms of ANY art and think, "there's nothing new under the Sun"? Let me tell you something - if you're still practicing "technique" and rehearsal of it, you'll only get so far. Eventually you have to get to a point where there's no set technique that comes out of you, because you simply feel and respond. I am not slowing down at Master level at all. That's not the point I am making. I am talking about turning my attention to mastering things that have nothing to do with speed or power. I have seen certain skills demonstrated that make trained responses obsolete, and I have realized that that is the future of my development. The future path is not in rote forms or "new moves" anymore. If it was, then what have I been doing all my life to get me to this point? edit: Ah, I reread and see you're not yet at master level. In that case, you're doing everything right. Gobble everything up that you can!
Right, and if you don't have access to those methods or the interpretation of the jargon such as "General Hanshin strokes the flag", then of what use is the book? The pictures are not the important part of it, you say, yet it's called "the Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts"! And what choice does anyone have to putter around waiting for spoon-feeding, when no one's around who knows what the stuff means?
Not that the current conversation regarding old books isn't interesting, but since ImaJayhawk's post (#15) got caught at the tail end of page 1 (using the default number of posts per page), I thought I'd point that out since he asks a very reasonable question IMO.
IMAJAYHAWK: Very interesting. I haven't seen much of those forms, to be honest. It appears, though I could be wrong, that he is part of the Korean Kuk Sool Won Association. The #1 Resource For All Things Korean, eh? I like his style! LOL MASTERDUNCHOK: I'm about as close as I can get at the moment to Master Level. I understand now what you mean by "flowing" and yes, I am to a point where new techniques don't matter to me, but they do get me to think at a new level. At this point, if I never learn anything else, its okay. I've said it before: there are only so many ways you can punch, kick, block or cut, step, thrust. Its all the same anyway. But some forms get you to think in another light; for example, I recently was taught Ji Dok Gum Hyung or Admirals Sword Form and Ki Chang or Flag Spear. Both got me to thinking on new ways to block, or attack, an opponent. On how to move. So, there is a point where technique sets wont' matter, but they still do. That is, in my opinion, what makes us traditional. Don't you think so? BRUCE: You might have answered this already, so bare with me here; what DO you think of the man that is doing the forms? Right...wrong...close....what? Is he following the correct pattern? He messed up the Ye Do form by using a long sword, but I believe that was just for a tournament to "awe the judges". The rest though?
