but if you look at the histories of Burma, Cambodia, and Thailand... as well as Lethwei, Pradal Serey and Bokator, and Muay Thai... you can clearly see where ideas combined... and artists collided... and how many times, the rulers tried to implode the amount of encroachment each side made on the other... since in turth, it mattered more for the noble folk, it was the poor ones who did the majority of the fighting... however.. we can also see it was the poor people often who bought in the noble's/government's words and so believe in it strongly... so while these arts are similar in some respects... their philosophy and their attitudes towards each other can be very very different... cause people are people...
sportmuaythai... When you click on the button to post a response, there is an icon on your toolbar that looks like a yellow square with two hills or mountains. Click on this button and it will open a window where you can post the link to a picture. You can also enclose IMG & /IMG in brackets [ & ] with the URL between them.... It does have to be hosted on a webpage already. You can't post directly from your computer. Fortunately, PHOTOBUCKET.COM accounts are free and they even provide you the HTML tag to copy and paste onto your message board posts....
I must be a dumb ass, since I still can't figure how to link the photo. Any way, please look at the link below. We were greeted at every village town and city we passed thru. Plenty of coconut juice to quench our thirst as well. From Stung Treng down to the sea, there must have been several hundreds of thousand Cambodians who turned out to greet us. I'm not kidding. That's why I feel obligated to spread Cambodian's friendliness and hospitality to Thais. You can see these villagers are poor, yet they were offering lime and salt for us to take away to refresh ourselves. Pls see the expression on the cambodian faces. They were genuine and warm. This is why I posted to counter slipthejab's post that Cambodians hate Thais with a passion.You can also see the students waving Thai flags. Therer were Cambodians flags as well, But I don't see them in the photoes. http://www.thaimtb.com/cgi-bin/viewkatoo.pl?id=116422
Great pictures sportmuay,i especially liked the 5th one down with the children smiling and waving,reminded me of when i was teaching the thai children english in a school in lopburi.Are you on the second photo down? if so where are you on the photo?
Two things - one I probably overstated my case when I said Cambodians hated Thai's with a passion. While I'm sure there are many that do I don't think I really meant that there are no Thai friendly Cambodians. Originally when this whole discussions started I was thinking primarily from an ancient history frame of mind - so that the Khmer Empire hated the Siammese with a passion is pretty much accurate. As the discussion went on I think the range of time I got to thinking about grew. That's why I brought up much of the dealings with the Khmer Rouge that the Thai military and big business had. The information that you chose to be dismissive of even though you could offer no refutement and failed to explain why one of Thailands most noted historical scholars would be writing something that was historically inaccurate. You couldn't because you can't. The work is valid and accurate. Whether or not that ruffles your national feathers is an entirely different subject. But I suspect that actually the case. Secondly - just because you go on a bike ride in Cambodia doesn't mean that the history of bloodshed and strife between Cambodians and Thai's is null and void - and I doesn't really matter whatever other conflict you bring up - that doesn't make the bloody history between the Thai's and Cambodians null and void either. You need to realize this isn't pointing fingers at Thai's to make them look bad. But if we are to properly discuss the subject then all facets should be shown. But as usual with people they don't like to look at anything that put their people in a bad light... even if it's true. People often have trouble discerning the difference of discussing a subject in it's entirety and in detail without being partisan to one nationalistic view or another. It's sad - and ironically it's a very polarized way of looking at things so common with westerners. So yes I'm glad you rode a bike in Cambodia and that the Cambodians you met came out waving flags - that doesn't invalidate much of what I've posted that you've chosen to conveniently ignore? Not one iota. I'm glad you feel obligated to spread the love that you felt from Cambodians. That's a commendable act on your part but it does nothing toward explaining the long and complex relationship between Thailand and Cambodia or the Siammese Empire and the Khmer Empire. Do you really think that those Cambodians had crisp new Thai flags sitting around their house just waiting to think 'Gee I hope a Thai rides by today on his bicycle so I can run out there and show him my love of all things Thai'.... Probably not. It sounds suspsiciously more like a government orchestrated PR event. I don't doubt that many of these Cambodians were genuine in their happyness to see you guys ride bikes through their village. The children will all have been to young to have yet covered much of the history of between the Thai's and Cambodians. Chances are that much of it will not ever be covered in depth anyhow. If much of it is not covered in depth in a country like Thailand with a massively higher GNP and far more exposure to the rest of the world and a level of education that is radically higher than that of Cambodia - then I doubt 99% of Cambodians will ever be reading works by the likes of Dr. Puangthong Rungswasdisab. If most westerners outside of the small academic circles of SE Asian historians have never read these works and if most educated Thai's have never read them - what do you figure the chances are that many Cambodians will have read them. Sadly not much. Anyhow, nice pics. I'm glad you had fun. I sure looks like fun. And I hope you can really understand what is that I'm saying that hopefully you'll realize it's not anti-Thai at all. In fact, I feel much of the lop sided feel-good-land-of-smiles tourist PR schtick that is so commonly associated with Thailand is total pap and actually does a massive disservice to the Thai people and culture - it's like .0000000000000000000000001 of the equasion yet people bandy it about like it's the first and the last fact in all things Thai.
Keep looking at thread expecting more insights into the historical Thai / cambodia debate........... All i'm getting is mountain bikes :woo:
The previous debate was a lot more interesting, i will admit so myself Maybe we could get a split thread?
If you're really into looking at one of the more concise and better written pieces on modern Thai history - specifically the Thai response the Genocide in Cambodia... then I suggest you download, print out and read this: http://research.yale.edu/ycias/database/files/GS21.pdf Don't expect to chew through it one go. It takes a while - as it's quite heavy on references and full of unfamiliar names to most westerners. But it does make for absolutely fascinating reading. It's a superb peace of academic work that is incredibly well balanced. Not only does he cite his sources but he writes well - well enought that you don't need to get a glass of water to get through it. Though be forewarned - Thai politics are about as complex as it gets. They are very different than many western politics as much of the modern history of Thailand has been either directly controlled by or strong influenced by top Thai military leaders. Again - I don't think that Dr. Puangthong Rungswasdisab has an axe to grind. I found that he was actually as objective as one could be. That his paper is academically credible and provides all the references and sources that he cites makes it a very unique insite into the times. What I find fascinating is the shifting alliances during the Khmer Rouge years. First they're for the Khmer rouge and then they're not... and then they are. First they're for the Americans... and then they're not and then they are. There was also a widespread popular notion that Vietnam would continue to increase it's sphere of influence until Thailand became the last communist domino to fall. Not really all that disimilar from much of the American paranoia in SE Asia during that time. What becomes even more apparent is that the central Thai government appears at times to have very little control over what the Thai military does. One department issues statements saying no American military forces will be allowed to use Thai soil for basing operations from - the very next day 1,100 US Marines from Okinawa land in Thailand to do just that - use it as a base of operations. (page 83 of the PDF file) You can read more on this incident in both the PDF file above and of course Wikipedia has a mention of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayagüez_incident (on somewhat of a seperate note - I'm always shocked by how relatively recent this incident was - yet I know of nobody from my generation that had ever even heard of it. My father (having been military) rememberd it quite well. But I guess it is rather disheartening to know that so few people may age actually know about any of this.. perhaps we're doomed to repeat it... Iraq anyone?) So obviously there were (and perhaps are - if the recent coup is anything to go by) massive rifts inside the Thai government. It appears that many Thai generals and people in positions of power have repeatedly used their posts to line their pockets - not only at the expense of the Cambodians - but also at the expense of the Thai's as well. (and before I get read the riot act by anyone - I don't really think that's any different than many other countries. So before anyone get's their shirt up... I don't really think that speaks badly of Thailand - no country is immune to these kinds of issues). At any rate - I feel that paper should required reading for university level SE Asian history courses... perhaps then people would truly understand more about the Thai's and Thailands relations with it neighbors.
You will notice that I have split the mountain bike posts off into their own thread. If you wish to discusss mountain bikes, please go here: Mountain Bikes If you wish to discuss Muay Thai vs. Lethwei, then stay here.
On a slightly related topic to my original post I saw Slip post something on Daido Juku. Like Lethwei you can headbutt and I think striket the groin but you must wear a spacehelmet and cup unlike Lethwei. I was wondering if you guys thought the protective gear in Daido Juku was a good thing or not, kinda like comparing modern boxing to bareknuckle.
